00:02:37 *** ZachThibeau is now known as ZachT|AFK 00:16:58 *** sancas (n=sancas@190.87.241.243) has joined #portableapps 00:36:05 *** ZachT|AFK is now known as ZachThibeau 00:36:26 *** SrgSiler|AFK is now known as SergentSiler 00:39:51 *** SergentSiler is now known as SrgSiler|AFK 00:51:47 *** Evoll (i=evol@cpe-98-154-1-242.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #portableapps 00:51:56 hi 00:52:12 why do all PortableApps.com apps cause the cursor to become "busy" for 5 seconds? 00:52:32 I checked processMonitor, and nothing is even happening while the cursor is busy 00:52:33 This has been discussed before, and recently in the fora. 00:52:36 It's not a problem. 00:52:40 it is a problem 00:52:47 It isn't. 00:53:24 Simply asserting "It isn't" isn't a sound enough logical argument. You'd have to provide some coherent and well thought out argumentation for your point, at the very least. 00:53:39 I have in the forum topic. 00:53:49 I see it as a problem, and I'm a regular user. If the app doesn't make the user happy then it's a problem 00:54:09 I avoid downloading any portableApps.com stuff and try to find alternatives because of the 5 second delay cursor 00:54:10 That's not an entirely logical thing 00:54:15 :O 00:54:29 it's enough to make me not use them 00:54:37 Using that as a reason is just ridiculous. What's the problem with it? 00:54:48 *** SrgSiler|AFK is now known as SergentSiler 00:54:53 Anyway, http://portableapps.com/node/20254 in case you're not aware 00:55:04 http://portableapps.com/node/20254#comment-125170 is my response 00:55:12 the problem is that there's a design flaw inherently in the startup script, because the 5 second delay cursor does NOT appear if you enable the startup Banner 00:55:20 therefore it's unnecessary 00:55:23 which means it's a flaw 00:55:24 No there isn't: it's a Windows issue. 00:55:38 See my response. 00:55:46 if it's a windows flaw then why doesn't it appear when there's a startup banner? 00:55:48 If the splash screen is on, Windows sees something to "blame" 00:56:06 Portable apps made by other people don't have this problem 00:56:12 it's PortableApps.com stuff *only* 00:57:53 the real issue with it is that i like to use perfect, fast, well design apps that are small and portable 00:58:01 the "wait cursor" means the App is "crappy" 00:58:08 like not designed properly 00:58:10 Evoll: if it really is that much of a problem, don't use PortableApps.com stuff then. Nobody is forcing you too. You've been given a valid reason as to why this happens. if you want to use apps that aren't truly portable, go ahead. 00:58:13 Well I've provided all the reasons that I can with the level of research into it that I've done. I still say that it's not an issue. 00:58:25 if you REALLY care, then post in the forum topic...it's a windows issue with NSIS...and it is just there. 00:58:30 there's NOTHING that can be done about it. 00:58:54 I know you can fix your script. I made my own portableApp script in Autohotkey and it doesn't have this problem 00:59:03 Evoll: AHK is NOT NSIS 00:59:04 It does not mean that the app is designed badly. 00:59:07 different methods of callbacks 00:59:23 like ChrisMorgan said, that does NOT mean the app is designed poorly 00:59:44 It means that the PortableApp packaged version isn't "perfect", it's flawed, so I look for a "real version" which isnt jacked up with delay cursors 00:59:49 In fact I personally would go so far as to say that we've got just about the best designed apps that there are - let alone in our field. 00:59:59 It doesn't delay it. 01:00:08 Evoll: show me proof that any app that doesn't have the "wait cursor" is superior to ours. 01:00:12 in fact, I challenge you to. 01:00:24 the wait cursor is enough of a reason alone, that's the proof 01:00:41 it means you didnt pick a good script system and your script is broken 01:00:48 In fact you may well find that it's part of the superiority of our techniques and the fact that we *are* perfectionists. 01:00:50 and furthermore... 01:01:01 again, like I said, nobody is forcing you to use our applications. If you are going to allow a windows flaw to sway you away from actual good programs, then so be it. Nothing we can say here will change your mind. 01:01:05 The most important thing is that just because it's a portable app, it should NOT have a penalty 01:01:08 it should be transparent 01:01:13 it's not a penalty 01:01:14 PortableApps.com stuff has a penalty 01:01:17 what does it prevent you from doing? 01:01:22 it infuriates me 01:01:28 !? 01:01:29 every time I see the delay cursor, i delete the program 01:01:31 *** PatrickPatience (n=Patrick@unaffiliated/patrickpatience) has joined #portableapps 01:01:34 that's just not acceptable 01:01:35 then I think you need to find something bigger to complain about. 01:01:41 i have accidentally downloaded portableapps stuff in the past 01:01:49 palogbot: urri 01:01:52 palogbot: uri 01:01:52 http://nascent-project.org/portableapps/irc/logs?t=2009-08-14#T01-01-52 01:01:55 then Evoll, may I ask, who's WONDERFUL applications you use? 01:02:12 gizomokid2005: i have a lot of portable programs, a nice collection 01:02:18 200 or so, not a single one has this problem 01:02:28 Evoll: that's not an answer. 01:02:37 don't make us have a penalty for using portable stuff 01:02:41 thats it, plain and simple 01:02:46 most likely, at least a percentage is illegal, or copywright infringing 01:02:51 Where from is more the question 01:02:53 Evoll, and, how many of them use an NSIS launcher to correctly and perfectly negate crap being stuck onto the host? 01:02:53 *copyright 01:03:19 Chazz: a number of them were made by my buddies, and some guys on a forum I frequent 01:03:26 both AutoIT and AHK ones are perfect 01:03:37 portableApps.com is the *standout* as the worst ones you can get 01:03:43 have you done regshots? 01:03:57 yep, reg is perfect 01:03:58 Evoll: that's not a reasonable statement at all. 01:04:13 just fix it damnit 01:04:21 i am a user 01:04:22 come on 01:04:30 There is nothing to fix. 01:04:40 why dont you even acknowledge your users concerns? 01:04:42 that's so dismissive 01:04:43 again Evoll, like ChrisMorgan there is NOTHING to fix. 01:04:46 You may as well ask Microsoft to fix Windows. 01:04:58 Evoll: dismissive would've been kicking you when you failed to reason with actual logic. 01:05:06 if we didn't care, we wouldn't be trying to reason with you now 01:05:20 because a CURSOR changes due to an OS flaw, is NOT something WE can fix. 01:05:25 You are using justifications to tell yourself that a legitimate user concen is "NOTHING" 01:05:34 Evoll: IF IT IS AN ISSUE...Then fix it. 01:05:35 it's just self justification 01:05:43 Gizmokid2005: incidentally, it's not a flaw in the OS, it's a feature. 01:05:45 self-justificiation would be if we actually got something out of this. 01:05:55 Hmm. 01:06:11 Evoll: you fail to take into account nobody here makes money off of the applications, and that we are all users or developers who DONATE our time and energy 01:06:17 what more do I have to say besides that the wait cursor is upsetting? That's valid enough 01:06:20 and ChrisMorgantrue. 01:06:24 it throws me off 01:06:28 I dont know if I should use the app or not 01:06:32 it's disorienting 01:06:35 Evoll: then ignore it. It does nothing to degrade any performance of anything. 01:06:37 it's a negative feedback to the user 01:06:39 I cant ignore it 01:06:41 No it isn't. 01:06:42 how is it negative? 01:06:47 *** Espreon (n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon) has joined #portableapps 01:06:50 it's providing a negative message to my brain, dont use this app, something is wrong 01:06:52 It says that it's doing something! 01:06:54 what NEGATIVE impact does it have, other than your personal preference. 01:06:56 Which it should be! 01:07:00 This is whilst starting a portable application? 01:07:06 ChrisMorgan: It's not doing anything. I checked process monitor. 01:07:07 PatrickPatience: yep with no Splash 01:07:12 there is no activity at all 01:07:14 Evoll: yes it is. 01:07:16 on the disk, registry, or elsewhere 01:07:23 Wrong, the activity already completed 01:07:27 Evoll: because procmon shows nothing, means ABSOLUTELY nothing. 01:07:28 Process monitor is not the be-all and end-all of everything. 01:07:32 It is /not/. 01:07:32 you can see everything finish, then it sits there with a busy cursor for 5 more seconds 01:07:34 Evoll: What applications, specificially? 01:07:40 ALL of them 01:07:42 on portableapps 01:07:44 OK then, that's an OS problem. 01:08:03 Would this not depend on the speed of your flash drive as well? 01:08:08 Or actually on reconsideration, it'll be continuing on to the activity of the application which gets run. 01:08:21 PatrickPatience: not really, it's more to do with system activity/ 01:08:21 Patrick: it doesnt have to do with the flash drive 01:08:31 same thing happens on a raid of Raptor drives 01:08:45 ChrisMorgan: there is *no* activity 01:08:46 i promise 01:08:52 i looked into it, i spent an hour finding out 01:09:03 Then what could the issue be on our end? 01:09:03 You can see everything complete 01:09:06 Check it yourself 01:09:19 Sorry, but you're mistaken - the activity may be with the launcher or the program. 01:09:20 But I've never had an issue with is. 01:09:22 The app is fully ready to be used, nothing is pending 01:09:36 it's just negative user feedback 01:09:39 Evoll: just out of curiosity, does this happen on ANY computer you EVER use with the apps? 01:09:40 I'll stop arguing, fix it damnit 01:09:41 i hate it 01:09:42 Please report it to Microsoft then. 01:09:51 Gizmokid2005: Yes, every computer 01:10:02 the ones i've used at least 01:10:26 Evoll: I just tested it 01:10:27 no issue 01:10:29 whatsoever 01:10:33 disabled splash 01:10:38 launched Notepad++ Portable 01:10:44 in less than 3 seconds the app was ready to use. 01:10:56 have you EVER thought to consider it may be a third party application? 01:11:04 there is no third party application installed 01:11:05 for instance, a firewall or AV with RT scanning? 01:11:08 bs Evoll 01:11:09 no 01:11:09 YES 01:11:11 there is 01:11:17 I have 0 programs installed 01:11:22 you'll NEVER be on a computer WITHOUT a third party app installed 01:11:24 i use only portable software 01:11:25 be it drivers or otherwise. 01:11:27 *** ptmb has quit ("Leaving") 01:11:31 bs@ Evoll 01:11:37 uhhh, check it out 01:11:41 one sec 01:11:49 Evoll: give me a Belarc Profile to prove it 01:11:52 and I shall believe you. 01:12:09 but I just tried it 01:12:11 and I do not have the issue 01:12:21 the app launches in less than the time you complain that the app "hangs" for. 01:13:12 Evoll: also remember that background activity cursor can be caused by *any* application - not just the launcher. 01:13:32 which goes back to my point about third party software. 01:13:42 Yup 01:14:03 It's remotely possible it might be related to the digital signatures 01:14:05 the fact that my app launches in less time than you say that the app hangs for, leads me to believe it's an issue with some configuration. 01:14:11 whether it be drivers or not. 01:14:51 Evoll: can you name any specific application this happens with? 01:14:56 http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5684/installed1.png 01:15:00 there you go 01:15:39 btw, the delay happens also on a fresh XP installed in a virtual machine 01:15:42 that cant be right, i dont see winamp on the list and yet thoes files on the desktop are clearly associated with winamp 01:15:48 I use winamp portable, duh 01:15:57 Evoll: explain the associations? 01:16:00 or did you do those yourself? 01:16:04 #1 Evoll you have installed programs from 3rd parties 01:16:05 it wouldent associate local files if it was portable 01:16:08 register_all.cmd sets associations 01:16:10 Gizmokid2005: register_all.cmd 01:16:20 each folder has a register.cmd in it 01:16:22 Evoll: adobe PDF? 01:16:25 which sets associations 01:16:27 To put down our stance clearly, Evoll, we have better things to do with our time than trying in vain to fix a problem which isn't there, and only appears to happen for a few users. 01:16:45 We shall skip over wondering how many of those apps are actually legal... 01:16:45 Gizmokid2005: I dont need that 01:16:49 Evoll: my point is 01:16:52 you have the association setup 01:16:56 yet it's not shwoing on the list 01:17:01 what? 01:17:05 the associations dont show in a list 01:17:07 how'd you get the ADOBE icon/association without the app installed 01:17:11 Evoll: yes, they do actually 01:17:14 look on your desktop. 01:17:19 I use portable adobe 01:17:24 I set the associations myself 01:17:24 you have PDFs associated with adobePDF 01:17:47 i see firefox in the quicklaunch but not in the add/remove programs list 01:17:50 so, not only are you complaining to a set of users/developers about an issue which isn't an issue, you are blatantly using illegal software? 01:17:54 I use firefox portable 01:17:57 SergentSiler: taht's easy. 01:17:59 which is a AHK script 01:18:02 it's on my C drive 01:18:05 in C:\Portable 01:18:11 ah 01:18:53 its better than portableapps.com firefox 01:18:55 since that one has delays 01:19:00 cant stand delays on FF 01:19:01 Evoll: you also have things like a custom theme which don't show up in Add or Remove Programs - is this one of the "portable" (quotes intended) apps? 01:19:13 custom themes dont need to be installed 01:19:14 Evoll: no delays without reason of *real* portability 01:19:16 ChrisMorgan, theming on xp isnt an app 01:19:23 Chazz: it can be 01:19:29 well its not installed dude 01:19:35 Evoll: again, illegal software 01:19:40 Nope 01:19:41 its not illegal 01:19:42 yes 01:19:43 it is 01:19:46 its a UXTHEME 01:19:53 it is a copyright infringement of Firefox 01:19:54 uses the standard windows xp theme service 01:19:57 I wasn't talking about your theme... 01:20:01 He meant Firefox 01:20:09 and Adobe 01:20:18 and who knows what else 01:20:23 You are avoiding the issue. Because I use an AHK script to startup firefox doesn't mean your portableApps.com stuff isnt broken 01:20:26 i dont see internet explorer in your program list Evoll and thats ALWAYS installed on windows 01:20:33 Chazz: No its not 01:20:35 i use nLite 01:20:37 Our programs are not broken. 01:20:43 130MB xp disk 01:20:44 Chazz, thats in windows components 01:20:55 Evoll: so its probably somethi9ng that has to do with your "streamlined" install of windows 01:20:57 *shrugs* 01:20:59 Chazz: IE can be uninstalled though it's not recommended 01:21:07 Gizmokid2005: btw, the delay happens also on a fresh XP installed in a virtual machine 01:21:07 oh ya :/ 01:21:20 Evoll: same streamlined disc too huh? 01:21:22 no 01:21:25 default XP 01:21:26 sp3 01:21:32 Chazz: and it breaks lots of things too which is why. 01:21:40 it doesnt break anything 01:21:44 every app is perfect 01:21:51 the IE rendering engine DLL's are there still 01:21:52 Evoll: I suggest that you take this issue, maybe make a post in the forums about it, if it's really an issue to you, and try to find a resolution. If you feel there is a true issue at hand, though I've just proven on my install, and 2 other VMs, one XP and one Vista, that it doesn't happen. 01:21:59 just not windows update, ie exe's, etc 01:22:03 Evoll: then it's not uninstalled properly 01:22:14 Evoll, how do u run your VMs? 01:22:24 most of it is uninstalled, except the critical parts 01:22:25 Anyhow, I think I'll tune out now, I've heard enough to realise that you can't be convinced by reason, and as so I've got better things to do, I will do them. 01:22:47 Chazz: on vmware on my laptop 01:22:49 Evoll: I think everyone here has heard enough. Take my suggestion to heart. This conversation is now over. 01:22:54 But you can't honestly say that we're not being reasonable. 01:23:08 * ChrisMorgan seconds Gizmokid2005 01:23:09 Evoll, and, the screen pic isnt from your laptop, is it? 01:23:21 Take my suggestion to heart: You have the worst portable app script there is, the *only one* with startup problems 01:23:30 no other script systems have this issue 01:23:31 Evoll: stop. 01:23:37 Evoll: again, take my suggestion to heart 01:23:41 this is OVER. 01:23:53 nobody here is going to be sad if you quit using our software, or never use it. 01:24:02 umm 01:24:08 my buddies wont use portableapps.com stuff either 01:24:11 we all use portable stuff 01:24:17 none of them touch your crap cause of the cursor delay 01:24:19 Evoll: Good for them. I'm glad they use you to think for them. 01:24:31 wow... so, thats what 5 people who won't compared to 100million+ who do 01:24:34 well we send alternatives to eachother 01:24:37 *** Evoll has parted #portableapps (requested by ChrisMorgan) 01:24:41 Again. Evoll. This is your LAST warning. This conversation is over. If it matters that much, then you'll post about it in the forums. 01:24:51 ty ChrisMorgan 01:24:54 aww ChrisMorgan, I was going to give him the boot, he didn't deserve a remove. 01:25:09 Gizmokid2005: sorry :P 01:25:15 it's ok ChrisMorgan, I'll let it slide this time. 01:25:34 I'd figured that the previous one was the ultimatum 01:25:50 *** excid3 has quit (Remote closed the connection) 01:26:09 ChrisMorgan, i have a feeling the folks who make mIRC are gonna be very unhappy now... 01:26:17 Chazz: why? 01:26:28 Anyhow, let's all take a deep breath... :-) 01:26:36 ^_^ 01:26:36 *** PatrickPatience has quit ("Leaving.") 01:26:55 I think that's about the fastest we've had lines flying in here... 01:27:03 ChrisMorgan: eh, close yeah :) 01:27:03 ChrisMorgan, he'll probally bug them with "Why did mIRC leave this room w/o me telling it to?" 01:27:14 :P 01:27:19 "I wasn't kicked" 01:27:20 lol 01:27:25 lol 01:27:30 "Medium activity", says KVIrc... :/ 01:27:43 :\ 01:27:46 *** Espreon has quit ("WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!") 01:27:46 ChrisMorgan: yeah 01:27:50 go to a room with a lot of people 01:27:54 like #ubuntu or #freenode 01:27:56 or something 01:27:56 wow... i'd hate to try and watch a channel on KVIrc's High Activity list :/ 01:27:57 lol 01:28:07 Chazz: just what I was thinking! 01:28:26 btw...that guys' app listing seems VERY VERY familiar... 01:28:38 He came in a couple of months back on the same issue. 01:28:40 I swear I've seen it before. 01:28:44 that would be why. 01:28:58 He posted a screenshot, that time it was in the top left corner though with no add/remove programs window 01:29:01 he was on like 2 weeks ago 01:29:02 does palogbot log join/parts? 01:29:05 Yes 01:29:14 *** PatrickPatience (n=Patrick@unaffiliated/patrickpatience) has joined #portableapps 01:29:29 ok, cause i think that guy was also here a few days ago at like 3AM CST 01:29:33 Hmm... considering that, do you reckon it's worth banning him, Gizmokid2005? Your choice. 01:29:33 *** PatrickPatience has parted #portableapps () 01:29:37 palogbot, uri 01:29:37 http://nascent-project.org/portableapps/irc/logs?t=2009-08-14#T01-29-37 01:29:43 ChrisMorgan: nah, I'll let him come back in. 01:30:00 maybe the logic will click in his head at some point 01:30:02 and he'll come back 01:30:08 if he does, and it's bad...he'll get the kb 01:30:22 Gizmokid2005: something about swine flu comes to mind... 01:30:28 lol 01:30:35 Pigs might fly. 01:30:45 :) 01:30:47 yeah yeah 01:31:02 even if he does have a /valid/ point, he'll follow it up in the forums. 01:31:28 Anyway, I want to get on with Manta. 01:31:33 woo! 01:31:49 have fun ChrisMorgan 01:36:54 *** SergentSiler is now known as SrgSiler|AFK 01:46:05 *** excid3 (n=Chris@dial-66-51-190-34.irtc.net) has joined #portableapps 01:49:53 *** SrgSiler|AFK is now known as SergentSiler 01:58:39 *** Espreon (n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon) has joined #portableapps 02:04:21 *** Suiseiseki has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:05:04 *** Suiseiseki (n=desudesu@wikipedia/Antonio-Lopez) has joined #portableapps 02:10:37 wow... http://lifehacker.com/5336382/digsby-joins-the-dark-side-uses-your-pc-to-make-money 02:10:55 GAH! Evil! 02:11:01 yarly 02:11:06 everyone uninstall digsby :/ 02:18:33 How? 02:18:51 Suiseiseki, open the install/uninstall thing 02:18:53 Bensawsome: how? I haven't got it installed 02:19:04 I don't see it on the list 02:19:12 :///// 02:21:53 "and finding the largest known prime number." 02:21:55 I lol'd 02:22:18 If they find big'uns, there's money in it... 02:22:36 Take a look at Prime95 for a similar thing for Mersenne primes 02:22:39 heh 02:23:08 good luck for them 02:23:42 ChrisMorgan :P 02:23:56 but ya 02:24:02 they could come up on major money 02:24:14 and personally i think using our computers to do that is despicable 02:24:22 if they are gonna do that 02:24:22 They could probably sell out for millions if they found the right company... 02:24:24 give us a share 02:24:36 If you want to make money, build up a good product and sell out. 02:24:50 and find the largest prime number :/ 02:24:54 or be like portableapps.com :) 02:25:01 yarly Gizmokid2005 :3 02:25:46 Gizmokid2005: we are (or rather John is) doing it the slow way which will quite possibly never end up with as much money. He could have sold out for many million, or charged for it. 02:25:54 yeah 02:26:03 but he was more concerned with providing something 02:26:13 He's doing it because he likes to. 02:26:17 And believes in OS 02:26:29 ya 02:27:14 Yep :) 02:27:33 We're still hoping on becoming millionaires out of it though, aren't we ;-) 02:27:49 nah 02:28:01 I would totally do the same... if i could proggram and wasnt going into college :/ 02:28:03 No? 02:28:15 ChrisMorgan, hust go trade in a few buck for zimbabwean monies 02:28:16 going into colleg = having no meny 02:28:19 atleast for me :/ 02:28:20 *just 02:28:25 Well maybe I'll be a millionaire with Manta ;-) 02:28:32 oh i know 02:28:35 japan money :3 02:28:45 I'd rather just have enough to live comfortably 02:28:46 we would all be like... billionaires :P 02:28:47 no need to be greedy 02:28:50 lol 02:28:52 exactly 02:29:03 john should give in and allow someone else behind the scenes with him too though, to help with releases and whatnot. 02:29:24 of everything that's done, that's the only thing I'd like to see change 02:29:30 ya 02:29:37 john works WAY too much 02:30:07 even if he kept up with all the coding of the menu and the standards and whatnot, and just helped delegate the releasing and whatnot to someone else 02:30:10 Considering what he's been thinking about cross-platform stuff and changing the langauge the menu is written in 02:30:18 Granted, he's trying with the RT, but it's just not there yet. 02:30:34 Gizmokid2005: of course, it'd need to be a trustful relationship with the digital signatures 02:30:38 RT hasn't worked. 02:31:22 ChrisMorgan: whatcha mean about the Digital sigs? 02:31:52 To delegate releases properly more than one person would need the digital signature private key. 02:32:16 and I know...the RT just hasn't made it...but there isn't a set of real "guidelines" to follow 02:32:18 ChrisMorgan: for what? 02:32:43 For releasing apps, digitally signed as we do 02:34:54 Options I see which stand a chance are: C++/wxWidgets, C++/GTK, C++/Qt, wxPython, PyQt, PyGTK, PHP-GTK. John doesn't like C++, and Qt is not-so-quite-completely-portable without difficulty, so that leaves wxPython, PyGTK and PHP-GTK. And personally, the more I do with PHP-GTK the more I like it, and it's about the smallest of the lot, especially then if you use Roadsend PHP. 02:50:27 *** tarbo_ (n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo) has joined #portableapps 02:53:17 I agree the language for the menu should be moved 02:53:40 Although, how well does GTK work on Mac now? 02:53:40 Any opinion what on to though? 02:54:01 I use Python and wx for Keryx, which is cross-platform. 02:54:10 I moved from GTK because of that 02:54:26 http://php-gtk.eu/en/install-php-gtk-2-on-macos-x 02:55:01