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04:10:45 <Bry8Star{T2> Why PortableApps keep on accessing NTOSKRNL.EXE ? what type of stuff its accessing/caling/changing ? is it disclosed to public ?
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05:31:27 <smashtommy> hi
05:31:42 <smashtommy> anybody here knows how i can update the portable google chrome to the most up to date version?
05:35:27 <smashtommy> anybody?
06:18:16 <smashtommy> bump
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07:28:10 <smashtommy> good morning?
07:28:13 <smashtommy> anybody there?
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12:45:31 <Gizmokid2005> Bry8Star{T2: if you trace it entirely, it's likely due to some winAPIs that are used to run things, depending on what exe you find using it, it could even be NSIS actually making the calls
12:47:01 <Bry8Star{T2> Portable firefox, thunderbird, etc all apps when runs, they access that NTOSKRNL.EXE ! !
12:47:34 <Bry8Star{T2> What exact type of Win API ?
12:47:58 <Bry8Star{T2> Its kind of scary !
12:47:59 <Gizmokid2005> the API to do basically anything on windows?
12:48:08 <Gizmokid2005> you still didn't say which exe accessed it.
12:48:18 <Bry8Star{T2> Anything accessing directly NTOSKRNL.EXE must be some super sensitive calls
12:48:20 <Gizmokid2005> or even how you figured that out.
12:48:34 <Bry8Star{T2> Why can't it inlcude its own DLL to use function from it ? !
12:49:06 <Gizmokid2005> Bry8Star{T2: I don't think you understand how windows works if that's your suggestion...
12:49:28 <Bry8Star{T2> The portableapps wrapper  itself does it
12:50:15 <Gizmokid2005> right, that would be NSIS accessing it then.
12:50:20 <Gizmokid2005> which calls winapis directly
12:50:26 <Gizmokid2005> likely then using the kernel.
12:50:52 <Bry8Star{T2> For example , in the case of Portable Firefox . .its the   c:\PortableApps\FirefoxPortable\FirefoxPortable.exe
12:51:24 <Gizmokid2005> right
12:51:31 <Gizmokid2005> if you care about what that's doing, all of that source is freely available
12:51:33 <Gizmokid2005> always has been.
12:51:38 <Bry8Star{T2> Is it not possible to include another DLL to connect with kernel, instead directly ?
12:51:51 <Gizmokid2005> the dll will STILL access the kernel
12:52:10 <Gizmokid2005> so you're just changing the file that makes the direct call...
12:52:18 <Gizmokid2005> there's no reason for it at that point.
12:52:48 <Bry8Star{T2> Or how about using windows OS system's own dll that are inside the system32 folder ?
12:54:09 <Gizmokid2005> you mean the dll that changes per version of windows?
12:54:51 <Bry8Star{T2> Source code is available for mnay things.. poblem is .. how a normal /regular person using firefox, can understand what these exact API CALLs are doing ? are this really safe ? is there way hackers/crackers can connect back into such firefox or PortableApps ?
12:56:04 <Gizmokid2005> Bry8Star{T2: if you don't understand something like this, then maybe you shouldn't be worried about it in the first place? I'm not going to try to educate you on how programs work, but if it wasn't safe, portableapps wouldn't be in the respected position it is.
12:56:25 <Gizmokid2005> if nothing else, programs accessing ntoskrnl.exe should be the least of your worries.
12:56:53 <Bry8Star{T2> I see what you saying even if portableApps switch from directly using NTOSKRNL.exe to something else, then that will connect in turn again withNTOSKRNL.EXE ! ... so what can be done ... to not occur such security messages ?
12:57:23 <Gizmokid2005> what software would be giving you "security messages" about normal access?
12:57:40 <Bry8Star{T2> Firewall type of software which have HIPS feature is ON .
12:58:32 <Bry8Star{T2> What I'm trying to say is .. you have to alter codes in such way, so that, it does not trigger those security warning.
12:58:48 <Gizmokid2005> or you're just reading the security warnings incorrectly
12:59:22 <Bry8Star{T2> This NTOSKRNL.EXE warning comes only when any PORTABLEAPPS are run.
12:59:49 <Bry8Star{T2> That is what makes it scary !
13:00:46 <Bry8Star{T2> May be you should inform firewall software that such behavior is OK.
13:01:02 <Bry8Star{T2> But .. if it were ok, then they wouldnt warn that much !
13:01:26 <Gizmokid2005> just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's "Scary"
13:01:29 <Gizmokid2005> that's subjective.
13:01:41 <Bry8Star{T2> Why do the security software company thinks this need to be inform/show to user, before executing ?
13:01:45 <Gizmokid2005> HIPS is designed to through a large number of warnings.
13:01:50 <Gizmokid2005> because of the nature of it
13:01:56 <Gizmokid2005> that's why it's an advanced feature.
13:02:26 <Gizmokid2005> which continually generate a high number of false positives.
13:03:01 <Bry8Star{T2> Ya .. you are right about that ... all are not threat to system
13:04:14 <Bry8Star{T2> If you have a webpage, DETAILING . .what exactly this CALL to NTOSKRNL.EXE does, then "fear" will go away .
13:04:31 <Gizmokid2005> if it's such a large fear, I suggest stopping use of the software that causes it.
13:04:41 <Bry8Star{T2> Pls do that . since its open-source.. inform users accurately  .. whay it is safe.
13:04:48 <Gizmokid2005> why?
13:05:00 <Gizmokid2005> YOu don't learn how a motor or transmission work in order to drive a car
13:05:07 <Gizmokid2005> why do you need to know how a computer works to run a program?
13:05:12 <Gizmokid2005> that's what this equates to
13:05:13 <Gizmokid2005> irrational fear.
13:05:20 <Gizmokid2005> of something you don't understand.
13:05:52 <Gizmokid2005> because, you saying that things are accessing NTOSKRNL is scary, then you would also say that thousands of explosions per second nearly 3 feet in front of you while you're driving is even scarier.
13:05:56 <Gizmokid2005> but both of those things are normal.
13:06:35 <Gizmokid2005> so again, it's an irrational fear because you don't understand. My suggestion is either A) to actually ask the software company of the software that's throwing these "messages" why it's doing it or B) quit using the software that causes them.
13:07:12 <Bry8Star{T2> If you run a car . .suddenly you see abnormal sound or smoke . .you are saying nothing to fear .. why ?
13:07:30 <Gizmokid2005> You're twisting words and reading incorrectly.
13:07:37 <Bry8Star{T2> Dont you think I wil call where I purchased it from to find out if thats normal or not ?
13:08:09 <Bry8Star{T2> You have the responsibility to show, why that smoke or sound is normal in your eyes.
13:08:24 <Gizmokid2005> you're misconstruing again.
13:08:28 <Bry8Star{T2> Why customer shouldnt be afraid of it.
13:08:32 <Gizmokid2005> I'm guessing you installed some "big box" software?
13:08:34 <Gizmokid2005> such as Symantec
13:08:39 <Gizmokid2005> or McAfee that's giving you these messages?
13:09:19 <Bry8Star{T2> Normal FREE firewall with HIPS ON.
13:09:31 <Gizmokid2005> "normal free firewall" isn't a piece of software.
13:09:38 <Gizmokid2005> Maybe the software you're using is just garbage?
13:09:52 <Gizmokid2005> without actuallying giving me information to try and help you, I'm not going to continue this conversation.
13:09:58 <Bry8Star{T2> he he, why not .. it could be.
13:10:21 <Gizmokid2005> "Hey, my car is making a weird sound."
13:10:28 <Gizmokid2005> your mechanic would laugh you out of their shop.
13:11:07 <Bry8Star{T2> Not mechanic .. when you purchased something 1st, then instanlty you seeing going to your home ... its making sound or smoke .. then
13:11:15 <Gizmokid2005> right
13:11:22 <Gizmokid2005> but to figure out WHY, you tell the person all the details you have
13:11:29 <Gizmokid2005> the kind of care, the type of noise/smoke/etc
13:11:36 <Gizmokid2005> not just, "It's a car that's making a sound."
13:11:51 <Bry8Star{T2> If I download something from internet .. then if its not doing what it suppose to . .then what ami to do . .go into forum , customer help ..  for help .. if its normal or not .
13:11:54 <Gizmokid2005> so, if you care to provide the software you're using that's giving you these messages I'll try to help, if not, I'm not going to.
13:13:07 <Gizmokid2005> because if your car is running as expected, and you plug in some random OBDII adapter that says there's an issue, yet none is reflected, a mechanic isn't going to go off the basis something is wrong because one thing somewhere said there might be.
13:13:23 <Gizmokid2005> unless the quality of the information can be verified, it will be assumed to be bad information
13:13:41 <Bry8Star{T2> Various software have portable installation mode in setup file, and many also release ZIP version .. none of those generate such NTOSKRNL.EXE related mesages !
13:14:01 <Gizmokid2005> but your reluctance to tell me what software you're using tells me that either A) you're pulling my leg; B) you're using some software that is garbage or C) you're not using the software legally.
13:14:15 <Gizmokid2005> apples to oranges Bry8Star{T2.
13:14:25 <Gizmokid2005> You can't compare a diesel truck to a compact economic car.
13:15:46 <Gizmokid2005> So, for the last time, unless you're going to provide me with the software that's throwing these "Security messages" I'm not going to continue this conversation.
13:15:58 <Bry8Star{T2> Many software palce WARNING message in their download page, that free ANTI-VIRUS may generate false warning, but do not feat, its ok.  where is yours ?
13:16:06 <Bry8Star{T2> S/palce/place/
13:16:17 <Bry8Star{T2> S/feat/fear/
13:17:12 <Bry8Star{T2> Do I need ot tell you anti-virus name specifically so you can place the name in your warning message ?
13:17:41 <Bry8Star{T2> S/ot/to/    you can use "free" edition of anti-virus . .. or   just use "aniti-virus"
13:18:03 <Gizmokid2005> Bry8Star{T2: you're continuing to ignore the question. So I'll continue to ignore yours.
13:18:15 <Bry8Star{T2> Warning related to NTOSKRNL.EXE . .all you can tell people is .. "Security suits"
13:18:16 <Gizmokid2005> but, so you know, one reason we'd need to know WHAT software is causing the errors, is so we can TALK TO THEM to fix it.
13:18:23 <Bry8Star{T2> You do not have to be very very specific.
13:18:56 <Bry8Star{T2> I just told you
13:19:01 <Bry8Star{T2> You ar enot listening
13:19:16 <Bry8Star{T2> Any free secuirity software . .with HIPS    feature ON
13:19:23 <Gizmokid2005> no you're not Bry8Star{T2
13:19:35 <Gizmokid2005> because I run three different machines with portableapps
13:19:40 <Gizmokid2005> all with different security programs
13:19:47 <Gizmokid2005> and have never once had an error or warning come up
13:20:18 <Gizmokid2005> also, if you MUST Bry8Star{T2 - you can find the information you're looking for at the bottom of our main support page... http://portableapps.com/support#false_positive
13:21:54 <Bry8Star{T2> THANKS .
13:22:32 <Bry8Star{T2> It clarifies thar there is no backdoor, and no-virus  based on them.
13:22:41 <Bry8Star{T2> S/thar/that/
13:22:47 <Gizmokid2005> like I told you in the beginning.
13:23:10 <Gizmokid2005> this software wouldn't continue to generate hundreds of millions of downloads if there was a backdoor in them.
13:23:14 <Gizmokid2005> *in it*
13:24:01 <Bry8Star{T2> But on more extra line, that .. HIPS feature can generate warning from security-suits, also false-positive or safe API calls . . .. such message will be best.
13:24:06 <Bry8Star{T2> Such wil lremove fear.
13:24:16 <Bry8Star{T2> S/on/one/
13:24:45 <Gizmokid2005> or, the user could just read the documentation from the security software that says a good majority of these messages will be false positives
13:24:52 <Gizmokid2005> thusly not requiring us to do more work for shoddy software.
13:24:56 <Gizmokid2005> You know, there's that option too.
13:25:21 <Gizmokid2005> If a user doesn't understand how a security option should work, especially one known to provide false positives, they shouldn't use it to begin with.
13:26:25 <Bry8Star{T2> ok ... it is not solved , in my opinion.
13:26:33 <Gizmokid2005> that's why it's your opinion.
13:26:44 <Gizmokid2005> we're all entitled to one.
13:26:56 <Gizmokid2005> you can either continue to find information to satisfy your fear, or stop using the software.
13:27:00 <Bry8Star{T2> Another thing is .. why are you not SIGNing software . .or showing SHA256 from a TLS encrypted webpage ?
13:27:57 <Bry8Star{T2> At-least .. SHA256 of binaries need to be shown from a SSL / TLS encrypted webpage ,then people can get file over HTTP / non-encryptedly.
13:28:33 <Gizmokid2005> if it's not signed Bry8Star{T2, you're not downloading from us.
13:28:38 <Gizmokid2005> the platform is signed for instance.
13:28:52 <Bry8Star{T2> Showing md5 or sha256 over HTTP (non-encryptedly)  is not actually safe.
13:29:31 <Gizmokid2005> as is Firefox
13:29:35 <Gizmokid2005> so I don't know where you're getting your information..
13:30:07 <Gizmokid2005> as for a hash for the binaries, you'd have to ask the person who posts them, by posting in the forums
13:30:16 <Gizmokid2005> but the software installers are absolutely signed.
13:31:17 <Bry8Star{T2> I was referring to share your GPG- SIGNATURE with users for each binary file, over SSL encrypted page .
13:32:08 <Bry8Star{T2> And another thing .. when binary files are/executes, then it shows a message of the author / developer of that program ... that can be forged ?
13:32:23 <Bry8Star{T2> As far as I know, it can be forged.
13:32:48 <Bry8Star{T2> so ... on your webpage you will have to show ... sha256 or the SIGnature file ... over HTTPS conneciton.
13:33:39 <Gizmokid2005> Bry8Star{T2: again, if you don't like it, you can stop downloading/using the software.
13:33:46 <Gizmokid2005> http://portableapps.com/node/20775
13:33:57 <Bry8Star{T2> And usage of SSL cert also needs a TLSA dns record in DNS. so you will have DNSSEC-sign your domain-name as well.
13:34:16 <Gizmokid2005> I'm done dealing with you Bry8Star{T2. Have a good day.
13:34:57 <Bry8Star{T2> Thanks for the help, information & conversation. bye.
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