IRC Log from 2010-02-12
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00:23:21 <JohnTHaller|away> ChrisMorgan: Feel free to do another alpha. I'll prob be looking at it this weekend. I lost over a day to this migraine.
00:23:55 <ChrisMorgan> OK
00:24:17 <JohnTHaller|away> ChrisMorgan: btw - you're only doing code yourself so that we can relicense it if we need to link to a closed DLL at some point later, right? Not using GPL submissions from others.
00:25:53 <ChrisMorgan> I cant think of any reason why we'd need to use a closed DLL at all
00:26:02 <ChrisMorgan> And what do you mean, "not using GPL submissions from others"?
00:26:47 <JohnTHaller|away> Well, the platform is all code contributed by me and we're adding in stuff from others that is under joint copyuright (we use the same agreement as OO.o does).
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00:27:11 <JohnTHaller|away> That way if we need to link it to a closed DLL later (like for a password/hardware management utility from a hardware partner), we can do that.
00:27:30 <ChrisMorgan> Yeah, you got me to sign that joint copyright agreement
00:27:52 <ChrisMorgan> Well then, what about BSD (new) and zlib plug-ins and things like that?
00:28:14 <JohnTHaller|away> I know. But if you accept any code from someone who hasn't signed one, then it's straight GPL. No one owns the copyright fullout. ANd we can never adjust the license or authorize a closed source link.
00:28:25 <JohnTHaller|away> No, all that is fine since both allow closed source linking.
00:28:32 <JohnTHaller|away> BSD and zlib i mean
00:29:17 <JohnTHaller|away> I mean if someone in the forums posts code and you incorporate it, at that point, we no longer own full copyright and can never link it with anything unless it is GPL compatible.
00:29:29 <ChrisMorgan> OK, I understand now.
00:29:46 <ChrisMorgan> I haven't used any directly yet. Only ideas.
00:29:47 <JohnTHaller|away> I someone suggests a fix and then you write the code yourself, that's still fine.
00:29:53 <JohnTHaller|away> Yeah, that's fine.
00:29:58 <ChrisMorgan> Yep.
00:30:08 <JohnTHaller|away> I honestly don't anticipate needing anything like that at any point.
00:31:01 <JohnTHaller|away> But I did have an interesting chat with someone who knew someone at a virtualization company that may be interested in working together. So, if we ever got to the point of doing a truly huge app that our launcher couldn't handle directly... it may be an option. But that's a long way off. And a long shot.
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00:32:18 <ChrisMorgan> About ProcFunc, then; that's wraithdu's script and I've switched to using it instead of FindProcDLL for a few minor reasons and a plan to check image path rather than just file name in future as an option. He has a copyright message but no licence specified. What do you think I should do?
00:32:34 <ChrisMorgan> (a) leave it, (b) ask or (c) switch back to FindProcDLL
00:33:30 <JohnTHaller|away> Ask. If he's intending it for use with NSIS, it should probably be BSD/zlib/MIT, so that it can be used with everything else. We do our NSIS add-ons under that license even though we GPL everything else for just that reason.
00:33:55 <ChrisMorgan> Yep, your first couple of sentences are what I had reckoned.
00:34:53 <ChrisMorgan> A few improvements on his code have also occurred to me, optimisations in waiting for a process in particular (it, and the FindProcDLL implementation, open and close a handle to the process after finding PID via process name each time, rather than just once at the start and then work from the same handle)
00:35:27 <ChrisMorgan> And also a LogicLib extension for it so that you could do ${If} ${ProcessExists} foo.exe
00:35:40 <JohnTHaller|away> Does it wait for a proc to finish?
00:36:16 <ChrisMorgan> It does it by polling every 250ms in his ${ProcessWait} implementation or 1 second in mine (from the original launchers)
00:36:20 <ChrisMorgan> So yes
00:36:45 <JohnTHaller|away> Ah ok. In that case, yeah, it would be more efficient to just keep the handle.
00:37:03 <ChrisMorgan> I think it could be made a lot more efficient by just using the one process handle and wait till checking something fails - thus that it's invalid.
00:37:50 <ChrisMorgan> It's really a deficiency in the way we've done it all the time right from the start - as it was the simplest way of doing it.
00:38:36 <ChrisMorgan> FindProcDLL has a unicode version available, Eric's code uses the auto and W functions (some times it needs to force the W) and so should work with Unicode.
00:38:55 <ChrisMorgan> I've updated all the System::Calls to drop the A as well so they should be W-ready
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00:41:42 <JohnTHaller|away> Cool
00:41:59 <JohnTHaller|away> alright, I am off again. I need to kick this migraine for good today and hit the ground running tomorrow
00:42:54 <ChrisMorgan> OK, bye. I'm off too now.
00:43:53 <JohnTHaller|away> Thanks for all your work chris
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00:46:32 <ChrisMorgan> OK, commented on ProcFunc about it all
00:47:59 <JohnTHaller|away> Yeah, see that, That should do it.
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00:52:39 <JohnTHaller|away> Ok, really heading off now. Thanks again Chris.
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01:02:14 <GizmoBot> SergentSiler is a PortableApps.com Menu Themer, his theme website is http://silerhost.site50.net
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01:54:05 * ChrisMorgan resolves to see if online installers work in Wine
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02:56:13 <ChrisMorgan> Online installers work in Wine. And even Process Explorer works for the most part perfectly in Wine.
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03:17:34 <avi__> does anyone know how to create submenus?
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03:19:11 <avi__> what is CTCP ?
03:24:13 <ChrisMorgan> CTCP is an IRC term. You don't need to worry about it really
03:24:27 <ChrisMorgan> Literally it is Client To Client Protocol
03:24:42 <ChrisMorgan> As for submenus, you can't do it in the PortableApps.com Platform yet.
03:26:15 <ChrisMorgan> Grr. I go and prepare a nice post with statistics showing how OpenOffice.org Portable involves more than 1.2GB of data to upload (and probably 3 or so to compress in two ways, not to mention the installation)... and when I press save, 404. The thread has been deleted :-(
03:27:44 <avi__> ok. thanks.
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03:34:14 <pa_0372> I've downloaded the product, installed it on the USB drive. However, no apps appear on the left side of screen. Ideas?
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03:35:10 <Bensawsome> left side pa_0372?
03:36:12 <pa_0372> Left side of the Portable Apps software screen. The right side shows menu items
03:36:18 <Bensawsome> oh ok
03:36:25 <Bensawsome> i thought you meant the start menu
03:36:26 <Bensawsome> lo.
03:36:27 <Bensawsome> l
03:37:10 <pa_0372> Any idea why links to the apps don't apper?
03:38:04 <ChrisMorgan> pa_0372: you haven't installed any software into it
03:38:27 <Bensawsome> which version of the platform did you install?
03:38:27 <Bensawsome> platform only, light or standard
03:39:04 <pa_0372> The platform was standard. I thought the apps were downloaded?
03:39:50 <ChrisMorgan> pa_0372: if no icons are appearing in it, you must have downloaded the base version - platform only - which doesn't include any applications.
03:40:26 <ChrisMorgan> Open Explorer to your drive, and look at the PortableApps directory inside it; there should be just one called "PortableApps.com"
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03:42:59 <pa_0372> I downloaded standard. I found the "PortableApps.com" and executed it. An install resulted. Still no apps.
03:44:31 <ChrisMorgan> OK, what's the file name of what you downloaded?
03:44:37 <ChrisMorgan> And how big is it?
03:45:27 <ChrisMorgan> Is it PortableApps.com_Platform_Setup_1.6.exe, PortableApps.com_Suite_Light_Setup_1.6.exe or PortableApps.com_Suite_Setup_1.6.exe?
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03:48:23 <pa_0372> It's ....Platform_Setup_1.6, size 1,757.
03:50:13 <ChrisMorgan> That's just the platform with no applications included.
03:50:43 <ChrisMorgan> So you should either install the Suite or select the applications you want and download them.
03:51:50 <pa_0372> To me the documentation is confusing. It shows a series of check marks beside the applications. I'll research the Suite install.
03:53:05 <pa_0372> Thanks for the help!!
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05:42:03 <GizmoBot> computerfreaker is working on KidSafe and TopOCR, and would very much like to have folks test them and give feedback
05:42:08 <computerfreaker> Hi guys!
05:42:18 <ChrisMorgan> Hey computerfreaker
05:42:46 <computerfreaker> ChrisMorgan: I'm in IRC with the NVDA developers at the moment. We've got a workaround for that problem, but it involves running NVDA from %TEMP%. Does PAL have a RunLocally equivalent?
05:43:01 <ChrisMorgan> Ooh. What a horrible idea.
05:43:04 <ChrisMorgan> Why does it involve that?
05:43:19 <ChrisMorgan> What's their IRC server?
05:43:41 <computerfreaker> #nvda on OFTC
05:43:45 <ChrisMorgan> OFTC?
05:43:54 <computerfreaker> yes, that's the server (like FreeNode)
05:44:00 <computerfreaker> let me try to find a link
05:44:04 <ChrisMorgan> Server address?
05:44:11 <computerfreaker> working on getting it right now
05:44:29 <computerfreaker> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/Community
05:44:33 <computerfreaker> OFTC = oftc.net
05:44:40 <computerfreaker> btw, please don't go there yet
05:44:44 <computerfreaker> I need to explain a few things first
05:44:51 <ChrisMorgan> Yep, thanks. I happen to have closed Chrome just at the moment. I was trying out the different process models. --single-process doesn't seem to work :-/ and --process-per-site is really buggy
05:44:53 <computerfreaker> so we're all on the same page once you get in there
05:45:32 <computerfreaker> The devs told me that NVDA injects the DLL's into various processes; they try to unhook it, but sometimes the hooked process won't let go.
05:45:45 <computerfreaker> They suggested running from %TEMP% so that no longer matters, hence my question
05:45:49 <computerfreaker> let me get you the log
05:46:03 <ChrisMorgan> I don't see how putting it in TEMP would change anything at all
05:46:12 <computerfreaker> it doesn't, technically
05:46:26 <ChrisMorgan> What would it do though?
05:46:27 <computerfreaker> it only makes it possible to remove the flash drive without rebooting, since the hooked DLL is no longer on the flash drive
05:46:36 <computerfreaker> and yes, I agree with you, this is a horrible idea
05:46:39 <ChrisMorgan> If a handle is open, you still won't be able to delete the files locally.
05:46:48 <ChrisMorgan> It won't achieve real portability.
05:46:51 <computerfreaker> and the NVDA devs know it, too; they said "we've really got to get this fixed"
05:47:10 <computerfreaker> I know we can't delete the local files, but Delete /REBOOTOK provides some semblance of a fix
05:47:15 <ChrisMorgan> You could set the /rebootok flag, but that would be an utterly disgusting approach to it - files would be left behind on the host machine until reboot
05:47:23 <computerfreaker> it's really one ugly hack on top of another here, but that's the only option atm
05:47:59 <ChrisMorgan> It's not the sort of thing that will get it accepted at all at PortableApps.com. Even for testing purposes it would have an enormous "CAVEAT!" heading.
05:48:04 <computerfreaker> if you want to drop by #nvda and talk to the devs too... ?
05:48:28 <computerfreaker> "<Jamie> only solution for us really is to copy it ot a temporary directory before starting. need to consider doing this"
05:48:44 <ChrisMorgan> I'd say that isn't an option.
05:49:13 <ChrisMorgan> If it can't clear it up, the only option is to act like Process Explorer: search through every process, check each handle, if it's to such and such a file, invalidate it.
05:49:23 <ChrisMorgan> And that's really, /really/ messy in NSIS.
05:49:30 <computerfreaker> yes, I know :S
05:49:46 <computerfreaker> quote from my post in the forums: "Even the BASIC code is ugly"
05:49:54 <computerfreaker> and in NSIS... *shudder*
05:50:24 <computerfreaker> oh boy, here comes a conversation I'm /not/ looking forward to, *at all*
05:51:53 <computerfreaker> ChrisMorgan: NVDA is mostly Python according to its homepage
05:52:16 <ChrisMorgan> Really? That changelog you pointed out was C or C++ wasn't it?
05:53:53 <computerfreaker> I have no idea
05:54:02 <computerfreaker> I know part of it is C++, but idk how much
05:54:40 <ChrisMorgan> computerfreaker: personally I don't see why you're not looking forward to it. So long as they're nice, I reckon it's a fascinating problem :-)
05:55:39 <computerfreaker> they're nice enough, and it is a fascinating problem, but I just finished bugging them for 20 minutes, we got a "fix" (read: hack) implemented, they thought they were done, and now the whole thing comes down. idk about them, but I'd be getting upset at this point
05:56:19 <computerfreaker> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/About
05:56:31 <computerfreaker> "NVDA is written in the Python programming language, which allows for rapid development among other benefits. Code that needs to be injected into other processes is written in C++ for high performance."
05:56:34 <computerfreaker> ouch
05:57:21 <ChrisMorgan> Ah
05:59:34 <computerfreaker> how well do you think the languages interface? That could be something of a problem
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06:01:08 <ChrisMorgan> Not really. The bit that we care about is C++. Any more unloading code would go in there.
06:01:11 <ChrisMorgan> Hey Jeff!
06:01:17 <Horusofoz> Hey Chris :)
06:01:31 <computerfreaker> Hi Horusofoz!
06:02:21 <Horusofoz> Hey computerfreaker :)
06:02:27 <Horusofoz> What's the buzz?
06:02:47 <computerfreaker> NVDA, a OSS screen reader, is the current buzz
06:03:19 <computerfreaker> it hooks a bunch of system processes, but the DLL doesn't get unreleased properly - end result, no portability.
06:03:31 <computerfreaker> Chris Morgan and I are talking with the devs right now, and it's a bit electric
06:04:13 <Horusofoz> Cool :) When you say electric do you mean positive?
06:04:21 <computerfreaker> not sure
06:04:30 <computerfreaker> yes, I think so
06:04:31 <ChrisMorgan> Horusofoz: electricity comes positive and negative ;-)
06:04:39 <computerfreaker> it could go either way
06:05:40 <Horusofoz> Looks like a good app. Are the NVDA considering in house portalbe development using PAL or are you ( computerfreaker ) handling the development?
06:06:02 <computerfreaker> I'm trying to handle the development; the settings stuff is easy enough, but the hooks are a problem
06:07:06 <Horusofoz> Seems the PAl is being received more positively than some months back :)
06:07:13 <computerfreaker> yep :)
06:10:17 <computerfreaker> ChrisMorgan: "<Jamie> explorer often doesn't release"
06:16:55 <computerfreaker> ChrisMorgan: looks like we're stuck; we can't really ask users to close Firefox every time they close NVDA. Looks like RunLocally and Delete /REBOOTOK is the only way left for now
06:18:26 <ChrisMorgan> Probably so. For the moment at least if you wish to continue with it do a custom NSIS launcher, and put a big fat warning screen that it's still there if you can't delete it. Except that the software is designed for people that need a screen-reader because they can't read it themselves...
06:18:53 <computerfreaker> ok
06:18:57 <ChrisMorgan> And you'll have to put them straight in TEMP rather than in a subdirectory - There's no /rebootok equivalent for RMDir as I recall it
06:19:16 <computerfreaker> ok
06:20:00 * ChrisMorgan thinks we need a custom message box type to have a "Don't show this message again" checkbox
06:20:06 <computerfreaker> I wonder if John would be willing to let me create a "regular" splash? NVDA works, the settings move is guaranteed to work because there is no move, so this could go directly to an official release if it wasn't for this problem
06:21:46 <ChrisMorgan> Possibly only show that message box the first time you run NVDA Portable and it can't unload - that way people won't get annoyed by the fact that it alllwwaayyys annoys them when they quit.
06:22:00 <ChrisMorgan> So long as they know that it's a slightly non-portable aspect of it, it should be OK.
06:22:23 <ChrisMorgan> BTW, did you look at the previous test releases of NVDA Portable? There have been a few by a couple of different people
06:22:34 <computerfreaker> so, I'll probably want a FirstRun flag in a NVDAPortableSettings.ini file
06:23:03 <computerfreaker> no, I wasn't aware there had been any previous test releases. Let me take a quick look; maybe somebody figured out something
06:23:15 <ChrisMorgan> Something like that. Maybe "FirstRun=false" or "NotFirstRun=true"
06:23:34 <ChrisMorgan> In future, ALWAYS search before starting on an application
06:23:39 <computerfreaker> FirstRun=false sounds cleaner, IMHO
06:24:10 <computerfreaker> and yeah, not searching has cost me >3 hours already on XN Resource Editor and Inno Setup
06:25:56 * ChrisMorgan remembers when someone did WinDirStat once it was already an official application
06:26:23 * computerfreaker shakes his head
06:29:54 <ChrisMorgan> At least one good thing came out of it: the icon the second person had done was better than the official one and so it was incorporated in the next release.
06:30:15 <computerfreaker> just finished looking back at other NVDA test releases - the last was in early '08, and it was when NVDA was still in alpha
06:30:31 <computerfreaker> I doubt they had this problem to worry about
06:32:17 <ChrisMorgan> It's probably worth while taking a look at their source code nevertheless
06:32:36 <computerfreaker> ok, will do
06:32:54 <ChrisMorgan> Yeah, 0.6p2
06:32:57 <computerfreaker> whoa, what have we here?
06:33:03 <computerfreaker> Jan. 30, 2009
06:33:13 <ChrisMorgan> Indeed.
06:33:15 <computerfreaker> a somewhat later build than the one I had found
06:33:29 <ChrisMorgan> Oh, you found 0.5 did you?
06:33:39 <computerfreaker> yes
06:36:39 <computerfreaker> I am *stunned*
06:37:08 <ChrisMorgan> Why?
06:37:17 <computerfreaker> maybe just a fluke, but 0.6 apparently won't get rid of its hooks either
06:37:20 <computerfreaker> let me try again
06:38:37 <computerfreaker> hmm, apparently just a fluke
06:38:43 <computerfreaker> it went OK this time
06:39:22 <ChrisMorgan> What's the code like though?
06:39:31 <computerfreaker> looking at that right now
06:42:29 <computerfreaker> pretty simple: it moves two files using ReName
06:43:38 <ChrisMorgan> OK, so it didn't do any extras
06:43:43 <computerfreaker> nope
06:43:44 <computerfreaker> I'll just copy the KidSafe launcher and use that; the app style is the same (just needs a single command-line parameter to handle the settings file)
06:44:12 <computerfreaker> it's a standard PA launcher, if that's what you mean by extras, but that was the entire "guts" of the code
06:51:28 <computerfreaker> well, now that that's settled, I'll have to ask John about a custom splash
06:54:13 <ChrisMorgan> There, I've rewritten ProcFunc to use Util.nsh and its more efficient function method (as done by the core *Func.nsh files)
06:54:41 <ChrisMorgan> It also means you don't need to "!insertmacro ProcessExists" after including it, you can just run ${ProcessExists} straight away.
06:54:53 <computerfreaker> ChrisMorgan: should I have an alert ("This leaves files in %TEMP") or a prompt ("This leaves files in %TEMP%; do you want to continue or abort?")
06:55:41 <ChrisMorgan> Nah, just say afterwards the first time that "Some small files may be left in $TEMP. They will be deleted next time the computer reboots."
06:55:52 <computerfreaker> ok, will do
06:56:09 <ChrisMorgan> Bye
06:56:18 <computerfreaker> bye, thanks for all the help!
06:56:22 <ChrisMorgan> And it is "may" as far as you can tell.
06:56:32 <computerfreaker> ok
06:56:36 <ChrisMorgan> And don't use $TEMP, use a friendly name for it
06:56:43 <computerfreaker> yes, I will
06:56:46 <ChrisMorgan> "the local temporary storage directory"
06:56:57 <computerfreaker> that sounds good, and better than what I had been contemplating
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09:52:25 <pa_4367> hi
09:52:48 <pa_4367> i want ur help
09:53:44 <pa_4367> anybody know how to create language pack for portable apps menu
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13:59:50 <GizmoBot> Bensawsome is from the PortableApps.com forums, likes waffles VERY MUCH, and has a site at http://www.bensawsome.com . He also maintains StatBot and the IRCStats pages @ http://www.ircstats.info
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15:18:52 <GizmoBot> Bensawsome is from the PortableApps.com forums, likes waffles VERY MUCH, and has a site at http://www.bensawsome.com . He also maintains StatBot and the IRCStats pages @ http://www.ircstats.info
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16:51:02 <GizmoBot> ZachThibeau is awsome and is currently working on a super cool media player called musicplay3000 aka mp3k
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18:20:27 <barjavel.freenode.net> Topic for #portableapps is: Welcome to the PortableApps.com support channel. Visit us at http://portableapps.com/ | If you need assistance, just say "help!", or ask your question, and WAIT rather than just leaving. | This channel is logged: http://nascent-project.org/irc/logs | The #PortableApps IRC rules are here: http://gizmokid2005.com/paircrules Read and abide by them.
18:20:27 <barjavel.freenode.net> Users on #portableapps: palogbot sentabi Darwin4Ever spectrum1 +ZachThibeau Computator rouilj Zarggg_ SergentSD +GizmoBot @Gizmokid2005|AFK BjornH Suiseiseki sar3th|away StatBot Guest49332 MaienM|Away Mir
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18:30:18 <pa_4654> help! just created an account but it won't let me add a password, every time I put in my password in the field and click save it clears the boxes
18:30:18 <GizmoBot> pa_4654: Welcome to the PortableApps.com official chatroom. Ask your question and someone should be able to help you shortly. If you still don't get an answer, try posting on the forums: http://portableapps.com/forums
18:31:10 <JohnTHaller> Did you try using a different password?
18:31:20 <pa_4654> yep have tried several different ones
18:31:38 <JohnTHaller> Are you siure you entered the same password in both fields? You have to enter it twice exactly.
18:32:08 <pa_4654> it said they were both correct... i'll check again...
18:32:34 <JohnTHaller> Did you have any trouble signing up for the account? Did you get the email with the clickable link to verify it and click to get the current page?
18:34:18 <pa_4654> got the e-mail and the link, clicked it, came up with the edit page, tried putting in password and other information, the other information saved (like time zone etc) but the password fields were blank
18:34:44 <JohnTHaller> Wait, are you sure you're not done already? Are you logged in?
18:36:43 <pa_4654> I'm logged in yes, at least it has the option to log out, but the password won't enter. I've tried logging out to see if it had accepted the password but was playing up, but that didn't work. I tried logging in with no password but it didn't accept that either. So I then had to do the password reset to get back on
18:37:07 <JohnTHaller> what browser are you using?
18:37:22 <pa_4654> Google Chrome at the moment
18:37:37 <JohnTHaller> Maybe it's mucking with it. Try either IE or Firefox.
18:37:45 <pa_4654> kk
18:37:52 <JohnTHaller> Logout. Click the reset link. Copy the link. Paste into FF or IE.
18:38:00 <JohnTHaller> Copy the link you get in email I mean
18:39:17 <Computator> once you have saved the password it won't show it in the box so unless it says there was a error you saved it fine
18:44:43 <pa_4654> ... but if I log off and try log on with the password it says it doesn't work... probably me doing something stupid lol :D sorry
18:45:05 <JohnTHaller> cookies disabled or something?
18:45:19 <Computator> or is it too short of a password?
18:45:19 <JohnTHaller> or some adblocker messing with it?
18:45:58 <pa_4654> wait... no... wait.. got it... .... er... not sure what I did differently there...
18:47:07 <pa_4654> must have been typing something wrong somewhere... sigh... sorry for wasting your time, thanks for giving it and for the advice :D much appreciated
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19:41:20 <Gizmokid2005> hey JohnTHaller when are HOME and END going to work in the menu?? :P
19:43:20 <Computator> oh, btw, fwiw <alt>+<space> works but <win>+P stopped working
19:44:16 <Gizmokid2005> Computator: in V2 thats being changed
19:44:17 <Gizmokid2005> on purpose
19:44:28 <Computator> oh ok
19:44:32 <Computator> how come?
19:44:40 <Computator> and i am using 1.6
19:44:42 <Gizmokid2005> because of Windows using more hotkeys
19:44:49 <Gizmokid2005> He might've changed it for the latest 1.6 as well
19:46:00 <Computator> oh, i would think it would be better to keep the <win>+P one and get rid of the other because <alt>+space is already used for the context menu for the current window
19:46:19 <Computator> is <win>+p used for something in newer versions of windows?
19:46:22 <Gizmokid2005> Right, but WIN+P was used for something else in Win7
19:46:24 <Gizmokid2005> yes
19:46:33 <Computator> what?
19:46:33 <Gizmokid2005> it's for display prefs to quick-select
19:46:38 <Computator> ahh ok
19:47:16 <Gizmokid2005> http://gizmokid2005.com/images/win_p.png
19:47:18 <Gizmokid2005> for that ^^
19:47:38 <Computator> neat
19:48:04 <Computator> well then, how about <alt>+P then it won't conflict with either
19:48:07 <Computator> ?
19:48:27 <Gizmokid2005> ALT+ is a reserved hotkey
19:48:34 <Gizmokid2005> for accessibility stuff
19:49:03 <Gizmokid2005> trust me, John had a long conversation I think on both IRC and the forums about what Hotkey to use
19:49:26 <Gizmokid2005> Computator: http://portableapps.com/node/18863
19:50:30 <Computator> oh ok, one more question :) if alt+ is reserved why did they use <alt>+<space> (especially since it clonflicts w/ the context menu)?
19:50:43 <Gizmokid2005> it's not alt+space
19:50:48 <Gizmokid2005> it's WIN+ALT+SPACE
19:51:05 <Computator> ohhh, makes more sense
19:51:12 <JohnTHaller> WIN+P is used by Windows 7 and can't be overridden
19:51:27 <JohnTHaller> CTRL-ALT-SPACE is used by Launchy, which is pretty popular among techies
19:51:48 <JohnTHaller> So we went with WIN-ALT-SPACE since it is available and easy to hit with one hand in one motion.
19:51:54 <Computator> are they just still using <alt>+<space> in 1.6 then? cuz it opens the PAL when you do
19:51:58 <Computator> i agree
19:52:22 <JohnTHaller> Win-alt-space is used in 1.6 and 2.0B4 and will be what we use going forward
19:52:38 <Computator> ok great
19:53:22 <Computator> oh, and sorry, i guess i sortof drowned your question :( (i'll be quiet)
19:53:49 <Gizmokid2005> no need Computator, just be curteous, and you had a valid question :)
19:54:04 <Computator> ok thx :)
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21:29:42 <Gizmokid2005> hello markomlm
21:29:52 <markomlm> JohnTHaller:You've got mail :-)
21:29:54 <markomlm> Sorry for delay...
21:32:05 <markomlm> hello @all
21:34:19 <rcmaehl> JohnTHaller, Have you received my email?
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21:51:18 <markomlm> JohnTHaller:png
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21:58:34 * markomlm needs some sleep, bye
21:58:53 <markomlm> :-)
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23:16:28 <GizmoBot> SergentSiler is a PortableApps.com Menu Themer, his theme website is http://silerhost.site50.net
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