IRC Log from 2010-07-17

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00:03:28 <SergentSiler> um... ya >_>, srry bout my double D:
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00:41:21 <GizmoBot> ZachThibeau is the main developer of PChat and is a developer with PortableApps.com
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00:52:55 <awircser> Hi
01:05:26 *** pa_5740 (48a0c624@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.160.198.36) has joined #portableapps
01:06:22 <pa_5740> Gizmokid2005: May I talk with you for a minute privately?
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01:11:03 <pa_5740> JohnTHaller: Hi there!
01:11:08 <JohnTHaller> Hola
01:12:16 <pa_5740> JohnTHaller: What do you think of my thread? link: http://portableapps.com/node/24184
01:12:31 * auscompgeek wonders why JTH doesn't have a portableapps/ cloak
01:12:32 <JohnTHaller> Uesful info to have in one place
01:12:55 <JohnTHaller> I never heard back from freenode about setting it up
01:13:00 <JohnTHaller> They don't have time to do any admin stuff
01:14:19 <auscompgeek> Ah, I see.
01:15:21 <pa_5740> (sniff)
01:15:54 <JohnTHaller> snifff?
01:16:09 <pa_5740> Just a joke. :)
01:16:29 <JohnTHaller> Maybe I'll hear from freenode at some point. I asked about 2 years ago now.
01:16:43 <pa_5740> 2 years ago?
01:17:03 <JohnTHaller> Yeah. Lots of folks say they just never hear back on requests like that, so we gave up.
01:17:47 <pa_5740> Okay. BTW, have you been hearing about my legal questions?
01:18:46 <JohnTHaller> pa_5740: I saw your post in the forums. They leave it purposely vague hoping people will use it but reserving the right to charge if it gets popular/profitable
01:20:02 <pa_5740> JohnTHaller: May I PM you about something?
01:20:06 <JohnTHaller> ok
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01:48:02 <ChrisMorgan> JohnTHaller: are you aware of an icon rendering issue in Wine, black background instead of transparency?
01:48:43 <ChrisMorgan> Thanks for the update, BTW :-)
01:48:50 <JohnTHaller> I haven't tested B5 in Wine to be honest.
01:49:03 <JohnTHaller> You're welcome. 6am last night.
01:49:09 <ChrisMorgan> Yep. Ghastly :-)
01:49:17 <ChrisMorgan> Not sure why you say "last night" though :P
01:50:26 <ChrisMorgan> The icons are appearing without any anti-aliasing (going to white, I think, but I'm not certain - is it using the 256-colour one from the exe instead of the _16.png?) and with black in the totally transparent areas.
01:51:28 <JohnTHaller> No idea. It just uses an API call to snag it right now. It should be fixed in B6. A bug in the importer is pulling the ICO instead of the PNG in most instances at the moment.
01:51:49 <ChrisMorgan> That's probably it then.
01:51:59 <JohnTHaller> alpha PNGs do work properly in Wine.
01:52:04 <JohnTHaller> with Delphi I mean
01:52:33 <ChrisMorgan> I could check it out without much difficulty... just make the different sizes/variants different colours and see which colour it ends up. A useful technique at times.
01:52:51 <JohnTHaller> True true
01:53:09 <JohnTHaller> You try out the updater?
01:53:51 <ChrisMorgan> Only as far as getting it to show a couple of items. Not tried updating yet.
01:53:56 <ChrisMorgan> Hmm, I seem to have lost the menu.
01:54:19 <ChrisMorgan> Won't show up any more. Tray icon context menu works, but no show.
01:54:36 <JohnTHaller> Wine, right?
01:54:39 <ChrisMorgan> Yep
01:54:46 <ChrisMorgan> Possibly related to running an installer.
01:54:53 <ChrisMorgan> Possibly related to workspace switching. Don't know.
01:55:06 <JohnTHaller> appatrently it works better in XP compatibility mode
01:55:10 <ChrisMorgan> And when I restarted it went for the bottom /left/ corner rather than bottom right as it was first time for some reason.
01:56:51 <ChrisMorgan> Also the updater "loading..." banner doesn't render properly in Wine. It doesn't draw the window background. Minor cosmetic issue which I don't think you can really fix easily.
01:57:26 <ChrisMorgan> Platform screen edge snapping doesn't work in Wine.
02:00:25 <AppGuy> is B6 still being released on the 20th or will it be delayed a couple days as B5 was?
02:00:55 <JohnTHaller> I'm not saying a release date for it anymore
02:01:00 <ChrisMorgan> Good idea.
02:01:02 <JohnTHaller> It's done when it's done.
02:01:14 <JohnTHaller> week or two between betas is all we're saying publicly
02:01:15 <ChrisMorgan> Have you destroyed all evidence of there ever having been a release date for it? ;-)
02:01:54 <ChrisMorgan> Also, JohnTHaller, I personally don't like the way there isn't a *white* app list area in any of the themes... just that murky grey.
02:02:15 <JohnTHaller> There are only really two themes. And everything else is based on them
02:02:16 <ChrisMorgan> I think a good solution would be a third variant which is all-round lighter.
02:03:10 <ChrisMorgan> Lost the menu again... I'll try to pinpoint it a bit more. I think it's the workspace switching which does it.
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02:04:11 <ChrisMorgan> BTW, winecfg shows that it is reporting itself as XP. I haven't touched any of that, myself.
02:07:23 <ChrisMorgan> Yep, if I show the platform, switch workspace, (as soon as I let go of Ctrl+Alt the window hides) I can never get the Platform window back. It still does something when I click on the icon (shows the "fixme:x11drv:sync_window_opacity LWA_COLORKEY not supported" as it normally does when the window is shown) but the window doesn't appear anywhere (not even off-screen, Ctrl+Alt+Tab - all windows - doesn't show it)
02:08:24 <ChrisMorgan> Another thing just occurred to me, which one of us mentioned yesterday... environment variables PortableApps.comDocuments et al, are they being set yet?
02:11:53 <JohnTHaller> Not yet, no.
02:14:15 <ChrisMorgan> I suppose they'll only become "essential" when you can change them, but they'd still be a good thing to have to make sure apps get the right thing.
02:15:03 <ChrisMorgan> That's another thing which will need to be taken care of if they're customisable... "Is this really the videos directory?" otherwise they'll start Songbird and wonder why it's using their (something else) directory...
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02:15:54 <JohnTHaller> Yeah, gonna have that in b6
02:23:17 <SergentSiler> im loving beta 5 as it is :D
02:23:25 <JohnTHaller> glad to hear
02:23:35 <SergentSiler> who designed the themes?
02:23:58 <vf2nsr> I just want to know who is Leo?
02:24:42 <JohnTHaller> Our lead designer DJ Carey designed them.
02:25:04 <JohnTHaller> Leo was our 2nd PortableApps.com mascot kitty. He passed away a few months ago.
02:25:14 <SergentSiler> cool, i love them! they are perfict
02:25:21 <SergentSiler> awww, sad :(
02:25:44 <vf2nsr> ahhh sorry to hear that I know the feeling I just lost 2 dogs in less than 3 weeks
02:26:02 <auscompgeek> huh? beta 5 is out?
02:26:02 <JohnTHaller> Our other PA.c kitty is doing well: http://johnhaller.com/jh/
02:26:26 <JohnTHaller> Yeah, it's tough to lose a pet. Leo was only a kitten.
02:26:39 <JohnTHaller> auscompgeek: Yes, Beta 5 came out about 18 hours ago
02:26:45 <auscompgeek> oh.
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02:31:56 * auscompgeek is installing beta 5
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02:36:20 <auscompgeek> ooh! the dark black theme is cool :D
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02:41:05 <auscompgeek> I might put the updater to the test when I next come across a WiFi hotspot :D
02:42:16 <JohnTHaller> We tried to put a nice variety of themes in
02:42:45 <gluxon> JohnTHaller: The new one's Sneaky, right?
02:43:23 <JohnTHaller> The one on my homepage is Oscar. He's close to 2. The new kitten is Sneaky. We just found out she's sick
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02:44:32 <GizmoBot> ...
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02:51:45 <JohnTHaller> I'm glad I put a 2nd download attempt in the updater. SourceForge's mirrors will occasionally serve an incomplete file.
02:57:35 *** juancastro6 (cd90daea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.144.218.234) has joined #portableapps
02:58:15 <juancastro6> Hi
02:58:24 <juancastro6> I need help
02:58:59 <gluxon> juancastro6: What's your question? :)
02:59:25 <juancastro6> I want to create a paf file for a program that I use
02:59:53 <juancastro6> I want to install it in my portable apps program
03:00:37 <gluxon> Well, to do that, you first need to create a launcher with the PortableApps.com Launcher 2.0 by identifying where it stores its settings and registry keys.
03:00:53 <gluxon> http://portableapps.com/news/2010-06-30_-_portableapps.com_launcher_2.0
03:01:41 <juancastro6> what type of format does the file have to be
03:01:46 <juancastro6> .exe
03:03:18 <gluxon> exe.
03:03:29 <gluxon> But all you'll have to do it edit the ini file :)
03:03:40 <gluxon> The Launcher 2.0 will generate one for you.
03:04:50 <juancastro6> Just get the ini file.
03:06:31 <gluxon> It's located in the package (link above) under App\AppInfo\Launcher\PortableApps.comLauncher.ini
03:08:53 <juancastro6> there is not a file that says launcher.ini
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03:11:03 <juancastro6> I have the app/appinfo but there is not a launcher folder
03:14:11 <juancastro6> can some one tell me what to do now please
03:14:55 <gluxon> Are you sure it's the package from here?
03:14:56 <gluxon> http://portableapps.com/apps/development/portableapps.com_launcher
03:15:53 <juancastro6> Ok thanks
03:16:11 <juancastro6> Let me try and I will get back
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03:31:23 <ChrisMorgan> juancastro6: see the note at the bottom of http://portableapps.com/manuals/PortableApps.comLauncher/ref/launcher.ini/
03:32:11 <juancastro6> I get that
03:32:51 <ChrisMorgan> And use the app template from the Launcher page as a base
03:33:08 <ChrisMorgan> Sorry, lunch time now so I'm away again. If you're still here later I may be able to help more with any questions
03:33:28 <juancastro6> My problem now is that when ever select the file it tells me that it can not find the NSIS
03:33:59 <ChrisMorgan> Have you installed NSIS next to it as it says?
03:35:55 <juancastro6> I have installed it. Now I get this ERROR: E:\New Folder\App\AppInfo\appinfo.ini doesn't exist!
03:39:55 <juancastro6> I need help with the launcher
03:44:55 <juancastro6> @ChrisMorgan can you help me
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03:56:10 <juancastro6> ZachThibeau
03:56:19 <juancastro6> Are you good at creating apps
03:57:29 <ZachThibeau> all depending on what your definition of creating apps, if you mean if I can create an application from scratch with nothing but a text editor, knowledge of c/c++ and a c/c++ compiler then yes I am good at that :P
03:58:13 <juancastro6> No I need help creating an app for portable apps
03:59:14 <ZachThibeau> well currently I don't have time at this moment, almost 1am where I am at and I got a busy schedule, just only got on for a moment and then I'm off to bed, got a wedding to help prepare for
03:59:54 <juancastro6> I just need to know what you do first. I have the launcher and the installer.
04:00:50 <ZachThibeau> the launcher meaning the PortableApps.com Launcher? if so there is documentation there on how to use it, that is the first step
04:01:03 <juancastro6> Yes
04:02:38 <ZachThibeau> and I'm sure Chris would be willing to help since he is one of the main developers that created the PortableApps.com Launcher, but I do recommend reading the included documentation (which I think either is included in the app folder or in the other folder of the Launcher
04:02:49 <ZachThibeau> anyways peace out
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04:11:17 <juancastro6> ChrisMorgan can you help me
04:12:28 <ChrisMorgan> juancastro6: back now. You need to create the appinfo, all part of the PortableApps.com Format specification.
04:12:44 <juancastro6> How do I create it
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04:13:24 <juancastro6> Or can you create the app and send it to me please
04:13:57 <ChrisMorgan> Read the PortableApps.com Format spec, it's all in there.
04:14:06 <juancastro6> Ok
04:14:49 <juancastro6> how do I save the files and where do I save them
04:14:53 <Gizmokid2005> juancastro6: the field guide may help
04:14:58 <Gizmokid2005> .def field_guide
04:14:58 <GizmoBot> field_guide is here: http://portableapps.com/node/14868
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04:16:43 <juancastro6> The program that I want to create is xiphons bible study
04:17:14 <juancastro6> sorry xiphos
04:18:38 * ChrisMorgan prefers BPBible ;-)
04:19:13 <juancastro6> why is this one better. I like the layout of the xiphos
04:19:48 <juancastro6> I have read and I need to know if all this need to be put into an txt file.
04:24:01 <juancastro6> ChrisMorgan
04:24:53 <ChrisMorgan> I don't understand your question
04:26:00 <juancastro6> On the format page it tells me what to do. How do i save the info. Do I save it into an txt file or what.
04:26:20 <shanet> juancastro6: If you are on in 2 hrs... I will share what I know. Not as good as ChrisMorgan or Zach, but I am capable of converting apps and am happy to help?
04:26:23 <Gizmokid2005> juancastro6: yes...that's all an .ini is.
04:26:40 <shanet> oh well, gotta go now, so... cya
04:27:08 <juancastro6> so how do I create the .ini file what do I need
04:27:17 <juancastro6> am not good at programming
04:28:33 <Gizmokid2005> juancastro6: just use notepad or notepad++ (i'd recommend that over regular notepad), copy/paste the info that you need into the file and save it as the spec says
04:28:42 <Gizmokid2005> just save it with the extension of .ini instead of .txt
04:29:13 <juancastro6> Ok
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04:33:21 <juancastro6> Am sorry for bodering u all so much. I was just going to for get it becuase am confused. I will just wait until someone good enough can help build the app.
04:34:10 <juancastro6> I just got stuck in the format part. Thanks for your help.
04:35:00 <juancastro6> Maybe one of you can help me biuld the portable app for xiphos bible I would appreciate it. Thanks for your help
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04:38:02 <juancastro6> If any one can create the app please send it to jcastro@daltonstate.edu. THANKS
04:41:36 <juancastro6> ChrisMorgan thanks for your help
04:45:58 *** Jose (cd90daea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.144.218.234) has joined #portableapps
04:46:04 <Jose> Hi
04:46:39 <Jose> can any one here create an app for me please
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04:59:50 <juancastro6> Thanks
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05:15:46 <juancastro6> Have to go now
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09:40:34 <ChrisMorgan> JohnTHaller: you're up early... or have you not gone to bed yet?
09:40:49 <JohnTHaller> I slept a little over 4 hours.
09:42:38 <ChrisMorgan> Not enough. Go back to bed :P
09:42:48 <ChrisMorgan> Seriously, John, you need to sleep more.
09:43:06 <JohnTHaller> I know. But I'm awake. So what can ya do? heh
09:43:54 <ChrisMorgan> With that FileZilla version in the database issue, Gringoloco asked me if I could fix it. At the moment it's entirely static, so I can't, right?
09:44:22 <JohnTHaller> Correct
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09:44:54 <JohnTHaller> Soon, everyone with access to update appp pages can make fixes like that.
09:44:57 <ChrisMorgan> As for the GradualProgress thing, he said in -dev that the issue was that you had the wrong parameter list. If you read the docs I think you should spot it.
09:45:26 <JohnTHaller> I did read the docs. Three times. And it seemed correct. Though the docs contradict themselves
09:45:44 <ChrisMorgan> The updater source is in the separate download, I presume?
09:45:50 <JohnTHaller> yeah
09:51:41 <JohnTHaller> Ah I see
09:51:49 <JohnTHaller> I looked at an example. The docs are wrong.
09:52:35 <JohnTHaller> increase_to_position doesn't actually mean increase to position. It means total to increase by.
10:08:53 <ChrisMorgan> That's the most it will go to - e.g. the installer won't go past 90%
10:09:12 <JohnTHaller> It is only if you start at one.
10:09:21 <JohnTHaller> If you start at 5 and have 90 it'll go to 95
10:09:57 <JohnTHaller> So it's the amount of progress that will happen for that particular GradualProgress event. It's not an end point as would be indicated by the variable name and docs.
10:11:13 <ChrisMorgan> Hmm. Starting at /other/ than 0 hadn't occurred to me.
10:11:50 <JohnTHaller> Yeah. But we need to for while an installer is running and we're already at say 75% because we're updating 2 apps and the 1st is done installing.
10:13:07 <ChrisMorgan> So it could be preceeded by a SetProgress.
10:13:13 <ChrisMorgan> Interesting.
10:13:16 <JohnTHaller> Correct
10:13:51 <JohnTHaller> We want the main progress bar to be an indicator of overall progress of the updater's whole series of actions, both downloads and installs of all apps.
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11:05:36 <JohnTHaller> Hola Gringoloco
11:05:45 <Gringoloco> JohnTHaller: Did you have a good reason for starting progress bar at 1
11:05:59 <Gringoloco> and yes the docs are confusing
11:06:18 <JohnTHaller> If by confusing you mean outright wrong by the examples given, yes :)
11:06:28 <JohnTHaller> btw - have you registered your nick on freenode?
11:06:49 <Gringoloco> yes, registered, why
11:07:55 <Gringoloco> ?
11:08:54 <JohnTHaller> Because you're a developer. So you're now voiced :)
11:08:55 <Gringoloco> He, thanx, that's cool
11:09:17 <JohnTHaller> That way users know you are a dev when they visit IRC
11:12:03 <Gringoloco> reason, for progress bar starting at 1, seems to work fine without: RealProgress::SetProgress /NOUNLOAD 1
11:12:48 <JohnTHaller> Just on the offchance that something else in the main section had moved it
11:13:38 <Gringoloco> ah, ok, so setting it to 0 would be fine aswell
11:13:40 <ChrisMorgan> Why not start at 0?
11:14:09 <JohnTHaller> yeah
11:14:28 <JohnTHaller> Because I wanted a sliver of progress to show that it had started :)
11:15:33 <Gringoloco> ATM, I'm just seeing if I can get the 'maths' smoothened a bit, when that's done I'll leave the source in the topic with the handy utils
11:15:51 <JohnTHaller> Cool thanks
11:18:44 <Gringoloco> Got to have lunch, brb
11:19:00 <JohnTHaller> get my PMs?
11:32:22 <ChrisMorgan> I really don't understand why people from time to time ask us about how to /block/ USB disks.
11:35:11 <Gringoloco> JohnTHaller: yes I did, will have look later
11:37:02 <Gringoloco> about progress bar, waiting 10 seconds to increase by one seems to long, it would be nice to make it depended on the amount of apps being updated
11:37:45 <Gringoloco> but also depends on the download/install time
11:38:40 <JohnTHaller> We only need to worry about gradualprogress during each app run. It already correctly figures out where to be before and after each download and install.
11:41:33 <Gringoloco> during eac app run / app download, yes I understand but it's just not very smooth increasing it by 1 each 10 sec. and after it jumps to where it should be for installing/downloading the next app. Anyway, to fix that would make it quite complicated, but I like to have ago on it
11:41:39 <Gringoloco> each
11:42:42 <ChrisMorgan> If I recall correctly, the actual progress bar control only supports increments of 1%
11:42:51 <ChrisMorgan> (As the step size, that is)
11:43:09 <JohnTHaller> correct
11:43:17 <JohnTHaller> which doesn't leave us much flexibility
11:43:19 <Gringoloco> but it could calculate the seconds for each step
11:43:30 <Gringoloco> step=increment
11:44:00 <JohnTHaller> sort of.
11:44:11 <Gringoloco> currently every 10 sec 1 increment
11:44:49 <Gringoloco> with a lot of updates / old PC / slow internet that could be fine, but oftenly it is much to slow
11:45:04 <JohnTHaller> Yeah, I was gonna just use that for a baseline during installs. It's not as critical during downloads.
11:46:18 <ChrisMorgan> Two progress bars would be better. Overall and individual. But with NSIS that's much harder to manage.
11:46:28 <Gringoloco> I'll have ago on it and will send the simple script and additionally the more complicted one (if I can get what's in my head)
11:46:58 <JohnTHaller> The whole point is that while installing an app, it's a complete guess at what the progress is.
11:47:49 <Gringoloco> JohnTHaller: I know, but maybe roughly depending on the filesize
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11:48:10 <JohnTHaller> But that varies hugely too based on drive. slow fast drive up to fast hard drive
11:48:19 <JohnTHaller> The bottom line is it's always gonna be wrong :)
11:48:30 <Gringoloco> true
11:49:03 <Gringoloco> So what about, just making it depending on the amount of apps being updated
11:49:06 <JohnTHaller> So, we go with a number that's a bit slower than avg and then let it catch up on each install. Basically we figure out how long someone looks at it and gets frustrated without seeing a tick
11:49:58 <JohnTHaller> That's pointless, since we already have a proper progress per apps downloaded up to 50% and then per apps installed up to 100%. That's FAR more accurate overall than some kind of full-length gradualprogress.
11:50:24 <JohnTHaller> gradual is only for the in-between sections while an app is being installed (when we don't know what's actually going on).
11:50:54 <JohnTHaller> And in that respect, it doesn't matter at all how many other apps are being installed except with respect to what total % of the progress bar we need to move during that one install.
11:50:55 <Gringoloco> Ok you right, makes it easy, I just want to complicate things
11:55:39 <JohnTHaller> So I'm just gonna go one tick per 10 seconds I think as a baseline. We can always tweak later
11:56:23 <ChrisMorgan> A better approach would be to make it an indeterminate progress bar. You could do that by sending a window message of some sort. Wonder how things would cope with that.
11:56:59 <ChrisMorgan> Or better still, make the first one a guess, time it, then scale the other figures based on that. That'd be closer to accurate.
11:57:22 <JohnTHaller> Actually, what would make much more sense is adding a second indeterminate progress bar. Same size and location as the inetc one. During installs. That way we still know the overall progress.
11:57:54 <Gringoloco> I could get the first download/installer timed
11:58:13 <JohnTHaller> ChrisMorgan: We could do that approach. We do have the install sizes from the updater.ini
11:58:52 <JohnTHaller> Gringoloco: I'm not worried about it for downloads (since we have a download bar being properly updated). Plus, it will get a different mirror for the next download and be a different speed.
11:58:52 <ChrisMorgan> The real difficulty is squeezing these sorts of things into NSIS...
11:59:32 <ChrisMorgan> How does it do mirror selection - auto (leave it up to SF, I'm happy with that as it'll choose TransACT which is the best speed for me) or random?
12:00:42 <JohnTHaller> SF does it. Not sure how.
12:00:53 <JohnTHaller> We're going to be working more closely with them for the updater and app directory
12:02:57 <Gringoloco> ChrisMorgan: There some system calls I can do determen how much time it took to install an app
12:03:20 <ChrisMorgan> Gringoloco: yep, there are time ones.
12:03:48 <JohnTHaller> Guys, I really think we're overthinking here.
12:03:56 <Gringoloco> So what do you mean by: The real difficulty is squeezing these sorts of things into NSIS...
12:04:14 <JohnTHaller> We only have a maximum of 50 ticks (assuming a single app install) during which it would be a complete guess, so the timer is irrelevant.
12:04:25 <Gringoloco> JohnTHaller: I'm an perfectionist :-)
12:04:27 <JohnTHaller> In the case of two apps. We'd only have 25 ticks.
12:04:47 <JohnTHaller> I'm gonna stick with a simple baseline number and not overcomplicate it.
12:05:58 <JohnTHaller> If I recall correctly, using a gradualprogress caused the following setprogress to not be processed until the current timing event (tick) has taken place. So setting them too long will cause issues with that as well.
12:06:42 <Gringoloco> I done away with SetProgress, it conflicts with GradualPregress
12:06:56 <JohnTHaller> We HAVE to use SetProgress
12:07:01 <Gringoloco> Why
12:07:27 <JohnTHaller> Can you set it to a specific point using gradualprogress? IE, set it to 50% once all the downloads are done?
12:08:58 <Gringoloco> I needed to:
12:09:02 <Gringoloco> RealProgress::GetProgress /NOUNLOAD ;[/ORIGINAL]
12:09:02 <Gringoloco> Pop $var
12:09:02 <Gringoloco> IntOp $0 50 - $var ; this is the only way to set it to 50 use GradualProcess
12:09:02 <Gringoloco> RealProgress::GradualProgress /NOUNLOAD 0 0 $0
12:10:20 <ChrisMorgan> If you want to have a GradualProgress which just goes to an absolute value, turn that into a macro.
12:12:00 <Gringoloco> as you wish, like !macro SetProces, have to see what will happen when the value is below 0
12:12:16 <Gringoloco> SetProgress ?
12:13:47 <Gringoloco> or ${SetGradualAbsolute}, is it really nessacery, it's only being used once or twice(maybe I need it on the end still to set it to 100)
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12:21:09 <Gringoloco> Have to go now, I will just keep it as simple as possible and sent it tomorrow
12:21:25 <JohnTHaller> Cool
12:21:29 <JohnTHaller> Take care Gringoloco
12:21:30 * redline slaps Bensawsome around a bit with a large trout
12:21:56 <ChrisMorgan> OK, goodnight guys. I'm out too.
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12:22:54 <ChrisMorgan> I think 8ball is completely wrong in his post about Chrome/Firefox...
12:22:59 <JohnTHaller> Gnight
12:23:00 <JohnTHaller> ditto
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12:23:08 <JohnTHaller> But it's no use in arguing it
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22:44:35 <Gizmokid2005> RELEASED: DamnVid Portable DT1: http://portableapps.com/node/24280
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