IRC Log from 2011-07-16

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05:49:12 <DannyMuniz> irc://
05:49:25 <DannyMuniz> oopss! XD
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11:11:31 <GizmoBot> ZachThibeau is the main developer of PChat and is a developer with
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14:49:10 <CruelC> 0hai =(
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14:50:10 <CruelC> Where the ==== is the Announcement?
14:50:31 * CruelC is sick and tired of waiting!
14:52:27 <TPFC-SYSTEM> Haller seems to have a habit of promising too much. :(
14:52:42 <CruelC> Also, why not scrap OpenTTD Portable? OpenTTD is Portable By Design, to enforce portability you just add an empty "openttd.cfg" to the folder.
14:53:43 * CruelC owns a portable cross-installation of OpenTTD. Cross-installation means it rus on both Windows and Linux.
14:54:43 <CruelC> DOSbox is also Portable By Design, so instead of portabilizing DOSbox itself, why not portabilize one of its frontends (better D-box)
14:55:14 <CruelC> Portabilizing it needs Java Runtime Portable and Java Portability Kit
14:57:01 <CruelC> Guess portabilizing it is beyond my capacity.
14:58:14 <TPFC-SYSTEM> There are some applications which are in the PAF format only because of PAM integration etc.
14:58:18 <TPFC-SYSTEM> E.g.
15:00:04 <CruelC> virtuawin is just a "layer manager"
15:00:28 <CruelC> Who'd want to portabilize a layer manager?
15:01:39 <TPFC-SYSTEM> Anyone who uses it on multiple computers with non-default settings.
15:02:08 <TPFC-SYSTEM> It's very annoying that non-portable software resets to defaults on other computers. :(
15:03:04 <CruelC> Layers are something that Windows will never have
15:03:28 <CruelC> Windows barely learned to handle desktop as a window in alt+tab/win+tab commands
15:04:27 <CruelC> Desktop layers are something from *nix realm
15:25:47 <Gizmokid2005> CruelC: portablizing them for PA.c means putting them in the proper format
15:25:56 <Gizmokid2005> which no applications inherently support by default.
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15:29:19 <CruelC> Opera could, if it was able to handle profile command with relative path and backwards in it
15:30:26 <CruelC> But nothing can do TWO steps backwards at once
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15:31:15 <CruelC> cd .. is one step backwards, but nothing can specify TWO steps backwards in one command
15:31:28 <Gizmokid2005> ../..
15:31:32 <Gizmokid2005> is two steps back...
15:31:57 <Gizmokid2005> I've yet to see any program that supports relative paths that doesn't recognize that.
15:32:21 <CruelC> so ../../data/profile
15:32:33 <CruelC> for Opera
15:32:38 <Gizmokid2005> theoretically that should work, yes.
15:33:01 <Gizmokid2005> though the case shoul be kept the same
15:33:02 <Gizmokid2005> so
15:33:05 <Gizmokid2005> ../../Data/profile
15:34:38 <CruelC> DOSbox can, -conf ../../Data/dosbox/dosbox.conf
15:35:18 <CruelC> Any program that can specify alternate profiles with a command, should be able to work with PA.c
15:36:01 <Gizmokid2005> you don't understand the full spec CruelC
15:36:06 <Gizmokid2005> it's not /just/ folder structure.
15:36:30 <Gizmokid2005>
15:41:07 <CruelC> The only part of PAC specs that can potentially be supported, is folder structure.
15:41:39 <Gizmokid2005> that is my point.
15:42:34 <CruelC> some crack teams are using PAC reg-handling as a crack for payware
15:43:02 <Gizmokid2005> that's not something that is "new"
15:43:17 <Gizmokid2005> the reg handling that is.
15:45:36 <CruelC> There were rumors of PAC-cracked Photoshop, and some AV companies consider blacklisting all *portable.paf.exe that is not "signed" by PAC
15:48:01 <Gizmokid2005> that's not going to be useful...since only the installers are .paf.exe
15:52:09 <CruelC> Both installers and PACwrap
15:53:07 <Gizmokid2005> if they're truly doing it the way PA.c is they would be using stock .exes like we do.
15:55:59 <CruelC> If we can't do any legit thing to stop those like PA.BS, maybe we gotta boom them
15:56:47 <CruelC> booming is a kind of DDoSing, performed by starting a huge amount of downloads, eating all the traffic allowance of the victim ("usage boom attack")
15:57:49 <CruelC> No specialty software needed, just a timer software and a downloader
16:00:34 <CruelC> PA.BS - PortableAppZ on blogspot
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16:45:57 <CruelC> Vista is not Windows, Ubuntu is not Linux
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16:56:01 <CruelC> So when is the announcement? :@
16:56:05 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: we have gone through these issues several times. Format is (a) easy to use (the average computer user wouldn't have a clue what to do with OpenTTD or DOSBox to make them portable), (b) better (take a look at both of their launchers and you'll see they do more than you think) and (c) a central location to find good things. Is there anything further you would like restated before we close the topic?
16:57:01 <CruelC> Maybe portabilize DOSbox along with a frontend? (I may try to make a "startup point" for it)
16:57:56 <ChrisMorgan> We are talking about DOSBox. DOSBox Portable is DOSBox, it's not a different frontend for DOSBox. They're separate apps and should never be considered the same.
16:58:39 <CruelC> I mean, DOSbox is PBD - so instead of portabilizing bare DOSbox, why not portabilize a frontend?
16:58:45 <CruelC> Maybe D-box?
16:58:57 <CruelC> Or D-fend Reloaded?
16:58:58 <ChrisMorgan> "PBD"?
16:59:10 <CruelC> Portable By Design
16:59:42 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: it is *not* by our standards (as you have been told a number of times). Look at what its launcher does.
17:00:26 <ChrisMorgan> And if you cannot figure out what else its launcher does by looking at it, you are not qualified to say that it is portable by design and discount our DOSBox Portable as useless.
17:01:48 <CruelC> Dosbox update cycle is huge, dosbox is portable by design - so why not PAC D-fend Reloaded rather than bare DOSbox? As of "your standards", DB and OTTD wrappers have apps themselves in NON-portable mode, with folders "wrapped" to local ones
17:01:49 <ChrisMorgan> You are welcome to make a portable version of any program you wish, and distribute it (if the license terms are suitable). But remember that you cannot dictate what we do; largely, we make what we wish to make. And the fact is that DOSBox is far, far more popular than all the frontends for it combined.
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17:03:00 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: again, you are discounting the information that you have been given about the benefits of Format. Again, read
17:04:59 <CruelC> "upgrading" - nope, main benefit for a PBD software to be on PAC is pacupd
17:06:37 <ChrisMorgan> Could you please correct that last word so that I can understand it?
17:07:15 <CruelC> PACupd - updater facility
17:08:14 <ChrisMorgan> Please don't go inventing your own arbitrary acronyms and abbreviations and using them ("PBD", "pacupd", et cetera ad extreme tedium). Use English.
17:09:49 <CruelC> The two apps that are Portable By Design, that are in PortableApps.Com library are DOSbox and OpenTTD. Main benefit of Portable Apps Format for those apps is Portable Apps Updater
17:10:48 <ChrisMorgan> You are wrong in that you do not understand how limited the average user actually is. That is far from the most important thing that they do.
17:11:38 <CruelC> what then? backups with 7za?
17:12:19 <ChrisMorgan> For DOSBox, one of the simplest apps on, the main thing that it adds is the command line arguments ``-conf "$EXEDIR\Data\settings\DOSBox.conf"``. This is not trivial for an end user; there is a significant difference between having it Just Work and having to /make/ it work by a way which they regularly will not know of and often will be incapable of.
17:13:44 <ChrisMorgan> The difference between running an executable which is there initially and creating a batch file or some other such thing which launches it and running that is significant.
17:14:21 <ChrisMorgan> For OpenTTD, it sets the working directory (a concept which will be harder to comprehend than just adding command-line arguments), and also deals with language switching from the Platform.
17:15:39 <ChrisMorgan> Making things as easy for the end user as possible is something which is easily overlooked when you know how to achieve the result yourself. But the difference is immeasurable.
17:16:36 <CruelC> Sadly, DOSbox doesn't (yet?) teach the user on how to run it in "portable mode".
17:17:27 <ChrisMorgan> No. And why should it? It is designed for installation. Command-line arguments like -conf are only for advanced users. We take care of that and provide it to a new market.
17:17:46 <CruelC> Not even -conf!
17:18:05 <CruelC> Not even that, but having a .conf ithin the folder rather than in appdata!
17:18:44 <CruelC> within *
17:19:24 <ChrisMorgan> "A new market" - I do mean that. A significant portion of our market is a non-technical market that the base app developers could not get to. There are cynics - like you - who discount our work, but your estimation is wildly wrong.
17:19:59 <CruelC> "portability for noobs" is the reason for PACing DOSbox and OTTD?
17:22:11 <ChrisMorgan> Far from it. For myself I would far prefer to have a portable app which has been tested by the community and released officially than a merely "portable" version from the manufacturer. And most developers will, as well.
17:23:10 <CruelC> both OTTD and DOSbox choose between portable and grundlocked modes by where config is, so it's not a "portable version" - but "portable mode by manufacturer"
17:23:26 <ChrisMorgan> This discussion is getting nowhere. You have been presented with the information and you are tending to ignore it and pursue your own point (which I have addressed). Are there any other points you wish to query, or shall we close this discussion?
17:24:56 <CruelC> No need to portabilize an already-portable thing. Instead, you could have spent more time ironing out the bugs on other PAC apps
17:26:03 <CruelC> anyway, when is the announcement? Or is it halted 'till USA economy's future is decided?
17:27:11 <CruelC> "status update this weekend". Here, it's less than 3 hours 'till the week ends
17:28:35 <CruelC> Full Status Update This Weekend Submitted by John T. Haller on July 10, 2011 - 8:55pm
17:29:04 <CruelC> Submitted by JTH @ July 10
17:29:22 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: your complaints upon that score have been answered before and should need no restatement, but I will restate it again for you: wait.
17:29:56 * CruelC is sick and tired of waiting
17:30:48 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: you don't need to. You may give up if you wish.
17:31:45 <CruelC> Is JTH trying to "cover the spooks" in the announcement due to the USA economy poop?
17:32:39 <ChrisMorgan> Your speculation is futile. You know the reasons. They have been explained.
17:33:09 <CruelC> :( Waiting is the biggest annoyance for me!
17:34:12 * CruelC is almost ready to give up on PA.C - but the only alternative is WPP, which is a toilet blaster
17:34:46 <ChrisMorgan> What are you waiting /for/?
17:35:15 <CruelC> Status update - so as to know when next beta of 2.0 will come out
17:35:33 <CruelC> :@
17:36:36 <CruelC> 2.0 beta6, pre1... whatever it will be - next preview
17:37:22 * CruelC is tired of waiting :@
17:37:22 <ChrisMorgan> CruelC: why does a status update matter? Surely the product matters more? And why get worked up about it? Just wait and get it when it's ready. In the mean time, do what e'er you wish - use what's already there, use something else, it's your choice. But please stop complaining!
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17:38:56 <ChrisMorgan> Then stop waiting.
17:43:33 <ChrisMorgan> I think we should approximately officially update CruelC's state to "troll".
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18:40:36 <Gizmokid2005> until further notice.
18:40:42 <Gizmokid2005> if anyone has a problem with it, they can speak to me.
18:40:48 <Gizmokid2005> QED
18:44:27 <ChrisMorgan> Gizmokid2005: thanks for taking the initiative. If he didn't shut up after my last line, I was going to give him one warning and then do that.
18:44:41 <ChrisMorgan> G'night
18:44:46 <Gizmokid2005> it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to stop
18:44:48 <Gizmokid2005> g'night
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20:45:07 <h0rseman> Hi all
20:46:32 <h0rseman> I am looking for a way to create folders/categories on the main portable apps Launcher as I have around 100 Portable Apps in various Categories to sort
20:46:37 <h0rseman> Any Ideas?
20:48:06 <h0rseman> Could I create a .ini file?
20:55:08 <h0rseman> At the moment I am just renaming EG: "Virtual Keyboards Portable" to "ACCESS\OSK\Virtual Keyboards"
20:58:33 <h0rseman> Unfortunatly I Need to go now but will leave the window open for a bit,
20:59:35 <h0rseman> If anyone can help, please email me @, Cheers
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23:29:44 <Kiriko> hey guys, :") have i mist much?
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